A dilemma

Mklangelo · July 28, 2008, 12:09:19 AM

First of all I trust the honey flow is going well for all.

I have a problem. Three established hives with two of them having a high mite count as of late April. I moved them in to their present location in llate march. I then installed a new hive to make four.

This is the hive from which I have harvested 45 pounds of honey from.

Of the hives that were installed last April and survived the winter just fine, only one has worked the new plasticell in the super. I'm expecting a decent harvest from this hive. My concern is with the two "laggers" of the surviving three.

Question: Should I write off any harvest from these two of the three established hives and treat with Apigaurd? (thymol)

OR: It is too late to requeen these two weaker hives?

OR: Should I just let them be and hope for the best?

Stumped in Milwaukee.

PS. Lots of activity from all 4 hives. I can see bees flying non-stop all day long from 100 feet away.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Brian D. Bray · July 28, 2008, 01:36:49 AM

Quote from: Mklangelo on July 28, 2008, 12:09:19 AM
First of all I trust the honey flow is going well for all.

I have a problem. Three established hives with two of them having a high mite count as of late April. I moved them in to their present location in llate march. I then installed a new hive to make four.

This is the hive from which I have harvested 45 pounds of honey from.

Any harvest is good.

QuoteOf the hives that were installed last April and survived the winter just fine, only one has worked the new plasticell in the super. I'm expecting a decent harvest from this hive. My concern is with the two "laggers" of the surviving three.

The word plastic answers your question. Some hives, especially weaker ones will not work plastic period. Trying to force them to do so can be frustrating for bees and beekeeper. I'd replace the plastic with wood & wax and see if that doesn't make a difference. I've seen hives swarm all summer, time after time, rather than work plastic. I've also seen a strong hive turn whimpy when forced onto plastic.

QuoteQuestion: Should I write off any harvest from these two of the three established hives and treat with Apigaurd? (thymol)

Why, do you have a mite problem?

QuoteOR: It is too late to requeen these two weaker hives?

Why requeen, lose the plastic and see what difference that makes.

QuoteOR: Should I just let them be and hope for the best?

Waiting always makes the decision for us, not a bad thing when it comes to nature.

Stumped in Milwaukee.

PS. Lots of activity from all 4 hives. I can see bees flying non-stop all day long from 100 feet away.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[/quote]

Mklangelo · July 28, 2008, 08:22:04 AM

I think I will move away from the plastic foundation.

Robo · July 28, 2008, 08:45:38 AM

If they had a high mite population in the Spring, they are most likely on the brink of collapse. It is estimated that for every mite present in the spring you will have 200 in the Fall. Wait much longer and you won't have anything to treat. Doesn't sound like they are in too good of shape right now, so I would be less worried about getting surplus honey and more intent on getting them in shape to survive the winter.

Mklangelo · July 28, 2008, 05:43:09 PM

Quote from: Robo on July 28, 2008, 08:45:38 AM
If they had a high mite population in the Spring, they are most likely on the brink of collapse. It is estimated that for every mite present in the spring you will have 200 in the Fall. Wait much longer and you won't have anything to treat. Doesn't sound like they are in too good of shape right now, so I would be less worried about getting surplus honey and more intent on getting them in shape to survive the winter.

My State Apiarist didn't think is was quite that critical in spring inspection. I might just nuke em' with the Thymol and write off the honey from at least the worst of the two.

Michael Bush · July 30, 2008, 08:15:37 PM

>If they had a high mite population in the Spring, they are most likely on the brink of collapse.

Probably. Do a count now and see what you have.

johnnybigfish · July 30, 2008, 10:04:01 PM

Hmmm,. well Brian, you've explained to me why I have one hive that is only sitting on their comb instead of working the plastic foundation. This hive is the only one I had put the comb in with rubberbands.
your friend,
john

pdmattox · July 31, 2008, 11:20:22 AM

I will have to agree with Robo and sounds like they are on the verge of collapse. If you did not treat them since your April inspection chances are they have a heavy mite load. Apriguard has zero withdrawl days but takes 4 weeks for the full treatment. I would go for saving the bees over honey harvest for you need strong hives going into winter.

Mklangelo · August 01, 2008, 03:10:13 AM

Thanks to all.

Yes, I'm going to treat at least number 4 with Apiguard today. I removed the supers yesterday in preparation for this.

Mklangelo · August 01, 2008, 03:20:15 AM

Quote from: Michael Bush on July 30, 2008, 08:15:37 PM
>If they had a high mite population in the Spring, they are most likely on the brink of collapse.

Probably. Do a count now and see what you have.

Mike, based on the mite count in spring of 14 in hive 4 (we did a scratch on the drone cells). I'm just going to treat. Plus I suspect they swarmed. It has low population. But tons of activity. Hive 3 had a count of 4 in late April after a Sugar Shake.

I had sacbrood in hive 3 as well That is something I'll just have to hope for the best on.

Would it help to drop a frame of Drone sized foundation in there, to trap them?

Brian D. Bray · August 02, 2008, 12:07:36 AM

Quote from: Mklangelo on August 01, 2008, 03:20:15 AM
Quote from: Michael Bush on July 30, 2008, 08:15:37 PM
>If they had a high mite population in the Spring, they are most likely on the brink of collapse.

Probably. Do a count now and see what you have.

Mike, based on the mite count in spring of 14 in hive 4 (we did a scratch on the drone cells).

That's a lot for a spring count.

QuoteI'm just going to treat. Plus I suspect they swarmed. It has low population.

A swarm can be a good thing when it comes to mites, it breaks the brood cycle, hence the reproduction cycle of the varroa.

QuoteBut tons of activity. Hive 3 had a count of 4 in late April after a Sugar Shake.

How many shakes did you do? 3 shakes ar 10-14 day intervals is considered minimum.

QuoteI had sacbrood in hive 3 as well That is something I'll just have to hope for the best on.

Would it help to drop a frame of Drone sized foundation in there, to trap them?

Why use drone foundation, just cut out most of the existing drone comb from the frames, the bees will rebuild it. You can do this over and over.

Mklangelo · August 02, 2008, 12:54:35 AM

Quote from: Brian D. Bray on August 02, 2008, 12:07:36 AM
Quote from: Mklangelo on August 01, 2008, 03:20:15 AM
Quote from: Michael Bush on July 30, 2008, 08:15:37 PM
>If they had a high mite population in the Spring, they are most likely on the brink of collapse.

Probably. Do a count now and see what you have.

Mike, based on the mite count in spring of 14 in hive 4 (we did a scratch on the drone cells).

That's a lot for a spring count.

QuoteI'm just going to treat. Plus I suspect they swarmed. It has low population.

A swarm can be a good thing when it comes to mites, it breaks the brood cycle, hence the reproduction cycle of the varroa.

QuoteBut tons of activity. Hive 3 had a count of 4 in late April after a Sugar Shake.

How many shakes did you do? 3 shakes ar 10-14 day intervals is considered minimum.

QuoteI had sacbrood in hive 3 as well That is something I'll just have to hope for the best on.

Would it help to drop a frame of Drone sized foundation in there, to trap them?

Why use drone foundation, just cut out most of the existing drone comb from the frames, the bees will rebuild it. You can do this over and over.

Great post Brian. I do believe the brood cycle has been broken. I went in yesterday and saw TONS of stores. No brood my rookie eye could discern. I was a bit distracted though since the bees were VERY defensive and noisy. Which I understand is something they do when queenless? I puff the entrance a few times and the noise level increases drastically.

I'm starting to think this hive is queenless, or in the process of supercession.

Anyhow, I took the frames from the only super on #4, left the box on and started Apiguard treatment today.

I haven't done a shake since May 29th.

Michael Bush · August 03, 2008, 02:55:47 PM

>Mike, based on the mite count in spring of 14 in hive 4 (we did a scratch on the drone cells). I'm just going to treat.

The number could be higher or lower by now. Bees do have defenses such as hygenic behavior. Also, if you don't do a count before during and after you won't know if the treatment is even working, let alone if it was needed.