Why is she laying multiple eggs in one cell?

[Frantz]

I have my OB hive that I watch more than I should now, of course. I have noticed that she is laying multiple eggs in some cells? Why is that. She has had a great tight pattern and is laying like crazy. I have been pulling frames out of there to give her ample room to grow. So she has room to lay, but today I noticed that she has up to 4 eggs in some cells?? Its only in about 5% the cells not many, but I have a new cool flashlight that is allowing me to see right into these cells so today is the first day I am noticiing this.
Thanks a ton.
F

[Jerrymac]

Are you sure it is the queen? the same queen? Sometimes newly mated queens will lay multiple eggs. Sometime a worker will try to lay even if there is still a queen in the hive. Is there plenty of brood. Open brood is suppose to keep workers from laying.

[Kathyp]

i bet it's just because she's pretty new.  i have seen it a couple of times in hives that i have allowed to re-queen themselves.  it's about the only time i ever can see eggs!  it probably happens more often than we know.

[JordanM]

My queen out of a package did it for a little while but then stopped. I think as long as the eggs are all the way in the bottom of the cells that you'll be ok.

[BenC]

My first question like the others would be is she new?  If that's not it, Is she exploring/laying in more than one frame?  Are the frames drawn straight, Is she able to move to other frames?  adequate beespace and cell depth after the drawn combs you're putting in?  Just throwing out some questions, wondering if she really does have accessible room to lay.  I've seen where if the queen doesn't have adequate room (too long in the Jenter cage for instance) she will start to go back and do another round of laying.

[Robo]

It is not uncommon for a new queen, or even an overwintered queen that just started laying again,  to lay multiple eggs in one cell while she settles.  If she does it for more than a week,  I would consider it unacceptable a replace her.

rob..

[Frantz]

Gotcha, thanks all for the help and advice. She is fairly new. She does have room to lay, and near as I can tell the comb above her is nicely drawn out. She has started laying up in the new comb today. I just wondered why she was laying 3-4 in some cells. 2 to a cell and I would not have been as worried. But 3-4 had me curious. But she is new. Only been laying about 2 weeks. I will keep an eye on it and keep you posted.
Thanks again all. I love this ob hive. It gives you such a perspective!!
Frantz

[JP]

She's probably just showing off cause she knows you're watching her Frantz!


...JP ;)

[Robo]

Only been laying about 2 weeks. I will keep an eye on it and keep you posted.

Has she been laying multiple eggs for the 2 weeks,  or was she laying fine at one point and then started laying multiples?  I guess I would be concerned either way.   Usually they start multiple eggs when they first start, and straighten out after a week.

[Frantz]

Yea, she has been laying for a couple of weeks. I don't know if this is new behaviour or not as I just got a tiny little light that has allowed me to view the eggs at the bottom of the cells. So I don't know if it has just started. She was pretty tight until I put the new frame of drawn comb on last sunday though. She had pretty much layed eggs in every available cell. I will keep an eye on her and report.
There is no way that I could pinch this one, I just got her marked and everything. My new beekeeper wife would kill me.  :'(   Maybe I could replace her when she is gone and she would never know.  :-D
And yes, she is showing off, she asked me to use the ruby red to mark her with afterall???
F

[Robo]

Of course I have no way to prove this,  nor am I trying to say "I told you so",  but this is a good example of issues that can arise when an "emergency" queen is raised by a small amount of resources, like an observation hive .  You get what appears to be a fine queen,  but she is somehow deficient.  You see less of these issues with queens reared in a strong over populated environment.  You may have actually gotten lucky,  most of the time it happens later in the Fall when there is no time to requeen :(

[Kathyp]

the resources of an observation hive should not be less than those of a nuc.  in addition, if she is mating with drone from other hives, the genetics would be no more deficient than a nuc queen.  i'm not discounting your argument, but what is it based on?  what resources in particular would be diminished?

[Robo]

the resources of an observation hive should not be less than those of a nuc. 

You don't rear cells in a nuc,  the nuc is used once the cells are capped to provide the minimal resources needed to support her while she hardens and mates.

in addition, if she is mating with drone from other hives, the genetics would be no more deficient than a nuc queen.

I wasn't suggesting it was a lack in drone diversity.  Though having your own strong drone producing colonies with the traits you desire does give you better odds with genetics than just inheriting the traits from the guy down the road.

  i'm not discounting your argument, but what is it based on?  what resources in particular would be diminished?

The amount and quality of royal jelly for one.  A large populous group can produce better than a small group.   There is also the issue of them moving the larvae from a horizontal cell to a vertical cell that is required when making "emergency" cells.  It is believed they float the larvae out of the horizontal cell to the newly built vertical cell by thinning the royal jelly which affects the quality of it. Remember,  it is only a diet difference that makes a larvae a queen or a worker.  All larvae starts out on royal jelly, but it is a short period of time around day 3 1/2 that is critical, when the diets change.  This also corresponds to the time they are thinning the royal jelly.

I know others disagree and claim supercedure queens are perfectly fine.  I can only relate my experience, which is contrary to that, and it always seems they fail when requeen is not possible.

I believe you would have much better results taking a swarm cell from a stong hive and putting that into an observation hive, then just letting them raise an emergency queen on their own from brood. 

[Kathyp]

people do use nucs to do splits and let them raise their own queen.  seems a reasonable thing to do and the number of bees would be about the same.  buying a queen is a bit of a crap shoot survival wise.  if you have a hive that has a good queen, then i would think that raising a queen from that line would be optimal?  also, would you not have the same issue with those queen rearing nucs?

what am i missing here?  as one who has some good queens, and some bad luck with those purchased, i prefer to raise my own as much as is practical.

[Robo]

people do use nucs to do splits and let them raise their own queen.  seems a reasonable thing to do and the number of bees would be about the same.

Yup they do,  some get lucky, some don't.  Personally, I have had much better results rearing queens in a cell builder than with emergency queens raised in nucs.

  buying a queen is a bit of a crap shoot survival wise.

Can't disagree with that,  especially with most of the big commercial guys using chemicals.  There are some good queen breeders out there, but they tend to be smaller operations and the demand is more than they can produce.

  if you have a hive that has a good queen, then i would think that raising a queen from that line would be optimal?

Absolutely, but the quality of the queens you raise is dependent on the method used.

  also, would you not have the same issue with those queen rearing nucs?

Any method which requires them to make emergency queens by floating a larvae from horizontal to vertical is sub par in my opinion.

what am i missing here?  as one who has some good queens, and some bad luck with those purchased, i prefer to raise my own as much as is practical.

Where we differ is the method used to get these new queens.  I'm a strong proponent of raising your own queens from acclimated stock.  I just believe you get better results if you rear them verses letting them raise emergency queens.  A hobbyist can easily make 50 quality queens from one strong hive.  If your gonna make splits, rear the queen cells in a strong hive and then give each split a capped queen cell,  you will end up far better off in the long run.

[Michael Bush]

A queen often lays doubles because of limited space to lay in.