For those who think treating with sugar is "Non-Chemical"

[deknow]

again, your ignorance is showing.

it isn't the manufacturers that are bending to the standards, it is the standards that are bending to include the manufacturers.
http://ecomattersdaily.com/2009/07/usda-redefines-its-organic-label-to-mean-synthetic/  ...is just one example.

this is obvious to anyone paying attention...which clearly you are not.

deknow

[Acebird]

I'm not convinced Big Ag does much bending at all.

Make up your mind.  They are either taking an interest in Organics or they are not.

From what I see they are.  Before they were poo pooing it as unfounded claims.  Now not so much.  The ones you want to watch out for are the chemical companies and the GMO producers.  They stand to loose big time.

[rdy-b]

...when someone buys a jar of honey, they are buying FOOD, not intentions.  our customers certainly appreciate what we are doing, but they won't spend good money on something they don't want to feed their children.

You have practical customers--In small business class they teach about *PERCEIVED VALUE*-as long as the customer believes what he is buying has merit or quality-they will buy it--you already now that you can change your label
and even raise your price on the same jar --and they will buy it --its not what they now -but they just need to justify the cost and feel good about it-RDY-B

[T Beek]

I'm not convinced Big Ag does much bending at all.

quote Acebird "Make up your mind." 
:? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?

thomas

]

[Acebird]

Deknow,

The ones you want to watch out for are the chemical companies and the GMO producers.

Pay attention.

[deknow]

In small business class they teach about *PERCEIVED VALUE*-as long as the customer believes what he is buying has merit or quality-they will buy it-

did they teach about how customers who feel mislead after the sale are not likely to be repeat customers?  did they teach you that if you have the best product, and you educate your customers and speak to them honestly that they come back again and again?

deknow

[deknow]

Deknow,

The ones you want to watch out for are the chemical companies and the GMO producers.

Pay attention.

...pay attention to what?  is it your implication that chemical companies have no interest in organic agriculture?  that chemicals aren't used in organic agriculture?

deknow

[T Beek]

 :chop:I give up........

[deknow]

...i leave this up to the mods to deal with....i'm doing something i've never done before, putting someone on my ignore list.

deknow

[rdy-b]

In small business class they teach about *PERCEIVED VALUE*-as long as the customer believes what he is buying has merit or quality-they will buy it-

did they teach about how customers who feel mislead after the sale are not likely to be repeat customers?  did they teach you that if you have the best product, and you educate your customers and speak to them honestly that they come back again and again?

de-know

what i believe is that we are actually selling ourselves before the product and if people believe in what we do and
our methods then we have a customer for life-and just so you now i did not take the course -but am reminded by the teachings from my competitor- :lol: wich took the course-and i think we are speaking of comon ground-and it is precived value-- 8-) RDY-B

[luvin honey]

I'm not convinced Big Ag does much bending at all.

thomas

Nor I. I think they use their power to bully Congress into making the rules possible for them to follow. But, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's still possible for a vendor to state "I'm certified organic, plus I do this, this and this," or possibly things that were originally in the organic mindset but have now been bastardized by Big Ag.

[T Beek]

For many years I thought Being "Certified Organic" was going to be a great panacea for all. 

I've found It doesnt mean anything anymore, I won't use the term when describing my farm.

thomas

[Acebird]

I think they use their power to bully Congress into making the rules possible for them to follow.

Well I have been saying all over these boards that money talks.  Do you ever expect that to change?  Not in any country under any form of government will that ever change.  But at least when it becomes written law you have something that they have to follow.  You can still produce what you have always produced except you will have a document that you can show your customers to prove yours is better.  Having a wide open free frall is not in your best interest.  Having them bastardizing the rule book is in your best interest.

[T Beek]

Laws; generally speaking (and only my opinion), they serve to protect the wealthy and corporate elite. 

This, in and of itself is the primary purpose of Government; "to protect those who run and profit off the economy from the outrage of its injured citizens." 

The "profiteers" make $$ regardless of the economy.  That is historically true.

When the majority suffer, the wealthy do very well.  And NOW days with the mainstream media run completly by them, we're being told we should feel sorry for the rich, don't raise their taxes, it'll cost jobs....yeah right.  And the majority  (voters anyway) follows along like sheep as if its the gospel.

TREATING WITH SUGAR IS TREATING WITH A CHEMICAL, ALBIET, A "FAIRLY" BENIGN ONE, WHEN COMPARED WITH WHAT IS OUT THERE. :-D 

Lets' try and put some fun back into this forum.  All the attacks are getting tiresome and are one reason I rarely come around, except during the winter months. :)

thomas

[luvin honey]

I think they use their power to bully Congress into making the rules possible for them to follow.

Well I have been saying all over these boards that money talks.  Do you ever expect that to change?  Not in any country under any form of government will that ever change.  But at least when it becomes written law you have something that they have to follow.  You can still produce what you have always produced except you will have a document that you can show your customers to prove yours is better.  Having a wide open free frall is not in your best interest.  Having them bastardizing the rule book is in your best interest.

Acebird--money talking is nothing new under the sun. Are you trying to have a conversation here, or just inform us of all that you know?

As an organic grower, having Big Organic bastardize the guidelines is NOT in my best interest. It's what causes people to distrust organic and it wastes my time in even considering becoming certified organic.

No document is going to prove that mine is better. I grow organically now, and I will grow (obviously) organically if/when I become certified. The document will not create a better product, as my methods will never have changed. It will give some of my customers a sense of being able to trust my product, but those who know me already do.

[T Beek]

I think they use their power to bully Congress into making the rules possible for them to follow.

Well I have been saying all over these boards that money talks.  Do you ever expect that to change?  Not in any country under any form of government will that ever change.  But at least when it becomes written law you have something that they have to follow.  You can still produce what you have always produced except you will have a document that you can show your customers to prove yours is better.  Having a wide open free frall is not in your best interest.  Having them bastardizing the rule book is in your best interest.

Acebird--money talking is nothing new under the sun. Are you trying to have a conversation here, or just inform us of all that you know?

As an organic grower, having Big Organic bastardize the guidelines is NOT in my best interest. It's what causes people to distrust organic and it wastes my time in even considering becoming certified organic.

No document is going to prove that mine is better. I grow organically now, and I will grow (obviously) organically if/when I become certified. The document will not create a better product, as my methods will never have changed. It will give some of my customers a sense of being able to trust my product, but those who know me already do.

X:X Hey luvin honey, you're alright!

thomas

[Acebird]

 

it wastes my time in even considering becoming certified organic.

If you are not big, there is no point in becoming certified.
you admit that here:

It will give some of my customers a sense of being able to trust my product, but those who know me already do.

Unless you intend on getting big and then you are one of them anyway.

[luvin honey]

No, Acebird, I did not say it's a waste of time being certified. I said IF Big Ag fouls up the guidelines to suit themselves, THEN it would be a waste of time for me to become certified because the certification may be polluted to the point of meaninglessness.

And my becoming "big" (define that, would you?) has nothing to do with me becoming "them" anyway. Unless, of course, I become a monster Ag company and start lobbying in D.C. HIGHLY unlikely. If I became big, I would simply be serving more customers using the same methods I have always used.

Again, are you trying to have conversations here, or just argue?

[luvin honey]

I'm not convinced Big Ag does much bending at all.

Make up your mind.  They are either taking an interest in Organics or they are not.

They are not mutually exclusive. They can take an interest in organic (since it is the only ag sector growing a LOT every single year) AND not want to bend to the regulations, but to help change the regulations to suit them so that they can continue Big Ag, only without as many chemicals.

[Acebird]

THEN it would be a waste of time for me to become certified because the certification may be polluted to the point of meaninglessness.

I'm telling you it is a waste of time already.  The standards have already been relaxed.  "They" are already a part of the equation.  What you people don't seem to grasp is how Organics came about.  The consumer educated himself as to what is a better food source.  The consumer is already on top of things because they are educated.  They already know what big Ag and big government is doing.  That is past tense.  Your customers are coming to you even if you are not the purest of Organic farmer because you are local and they trust you way more than they trust big Ag.  Nothing will change unless you want to compete with them.  Right now there is no competition.  Their customers are not your customers.  If they are then you are part of big Ag, like it or not.

I would much rather have big Ag producing food with a host of restrictions than what they have been producing in the past.  It will be better for all in the future.