Thoughts on Tylan?

[charlotte]

Michael-
Sorry to jump in here- and maybe this should actually be a new thread -just wondering what is the school of thought on the new Tylan that is out?

Thanks,
Charlotte

[Michael Bush]

Tylan is approved ONLY for Terramycin resistant AFB.  It has a MUCH longer half life and will leave noticable residue in your hive (and your honey) for more than half a year.  Terramycin (OCT) has a half life of 6.3 days.  Tylan (tylosin) has a half life of 75 days.  That means it's half gone in 75 days.  It's 3/4 gone in 150 days and 7/8 gone in 225 days and 15/16 gone in 300 days and 31/32 gone in 375 days (almost a year).

I have never used Tylan and have not used any antibiotics in my hives for 32 years.  Do you want antibiotics in your honey?  Are you counting on them to put the antibiotics in the "no peeing section of the swiming pool?  Bees move stores around anytime they are in their way.  Whatever you put in the hive will be distributed throughout the hive.

Do you take antibiotics when you're not sick?

[charlotte]

Michael-
Thank you for the information on Tylan...

I was not aware that Terramycin masks the symptoms of foulbrood.  I am aware that improper use of it contributes to resistant strains. Just as not finishing a dose of antibiotics in the human world contributes to resistant strains of disease. I have been reading "Beekeeping for Dummies" by Howland Blackiston and he stated that the "Terramycin prevents the foulbrood."  Being that AFB is defiantly not something I want in my hives, it seems like the prudent thing to do is to prevent the problem before it starts.

I did not know that Tylan is approved only for the resistant strains or has such a long half life, etc.  Just knew it was new out there and wondered what the thoughts on it were.

I appreciate the information, however, I believe it is up to the individual to decide if they want to treat for things or not. 

And no, I do not take antibiotics when I am not sick, unless I am traveling into a place where a known life threatening or deadly disease maybe present.  Such as Malaria, and then I would most defiantly take antibiotics prophilacticly.  Similarly to using Terramycin prophilacticly to prevent AFB should it be present, rather than taking a chance of having to burn all my equipment. And I would be using as recommended, so as to not help create a resitant strain.  My choice, not everyone's. 

Thank you again for your thoughts.  I am here to learn from everyone's experiences. Have a great evening! :) 

[tandemrx]

Charlotte,

Have you picked up the Wisconsin Dept of Ag, Trade, and Consumer protection 2008 Honey Bee Control Treatments info sheet?  Kind of a nice reference.  They seem to put a new one out each year with updates.

They even have a specific fact sheet on Tylan, although the 2008 control treatments sheet is the nice reference sheet and it includes most of the info on Tylan.

On the fact sheet it comments that Tylan is used to treat American Foul Brood, but does not treat European Foul Brood (as opposed to Terramycin, which seems to help prevent both).  It also mentions that Tylan should only be used to treat a known infection . . . so apparently shouldn't be used prophylactically.

Here is the apiary section of the WI Dept of Ag/trade/CP:

http://www.datcp.state.wi.us/arm/environment/insects/apiary/index.jsp

Which part of WI are you in . . . I see we are looking at possible snow here in the Southeast on Sunday  :'(.  Time to wrap up the gals.

[charlotte]

Thank you for that link...that was exactly what I was looking for.  More info on Tylan since it is new - uses, etc. Good to know it is not used prophilacticly, as Terramycin is.  Hadn't really heard much about it, other than that it was out there :).   Yeah, maybe snow here too.  Take care & stay warm!

[BjornBee]

MB hits upon a point that should be considered with ANY chemical placed in the hive, regardless of what some manufacturers label implies.

Bees move just not honey around, but also wax.

Anyone with an observation hive can easily see that bees will move stores, and during the fall in particular, will also move wax. If you watch bees fill frames in an observation hive in September and October (northern areas), they almost never cap off fall flow honey with white wax. They cap it off with dark wax. And if your observant enough, you will notice that burr comb, comb from the edges, and other places will slowly disappear. They are not going to manufacture new wax and use resources and stores to make new. They will rework older wax. And so, not only do they move honey, they will move wax also. ANY chemicals applied with supers off will slowly be distributed throughout the hive later.

Many beekeeeprs actually wait to long to place on honey supers in the spring. Everyone, including myself is probably guilty of this happening at least once. So what happens is this....Chemicals or meds are used. Early spring honey in backed up in the brood chamber. Supers are placed. Bees move honey into the supers from below. And it's easy to realize what happens when the honey is laced with chems or antibiotics.

Get an observation hive. You will be amazed at what you will see.

[Melilem]

Wow Bjorn :) I didn't know you were here. I love reading your poignant posts on another forum. I'm glad you are here.

[charlotte]

Bjorn-
I totally see where you & Michael are coming from in that regard.  Regardless of a half life, chemicals stay in the hive.  I do believe in discarding old wax after 3 years or even less, depending on the circumstances, and have them draw out new comb to keep the build up to a minimum. Again, I think if you choose to use meds in your hive, you are doing so at a price, and need to use good thought and practice good hive managment by following manufacurer's directions. And yes, I do realize that trace amounts are probably present in the honey. However, if you choose not to medicate, you also may be doing so at a price.  Up to the individual to weigh the consequences of both.  There are excellent points both ways. ;)

[BjornBee]

Wow Bjorn :) I didn't know you were here. I love reading your poignant posts on another forum. I'm glad you are here.

Thank you. (Just let me know when they get long... ;)  )

I'm glad to see familiar smiling faces here.

[BMAC]

Charlotte your 3 year mark is not bad.  I utilize 5 years to comb replacement in my bees.  I use a very easy method to know which frames need to be replaced with foundation. 

I mark the ears of the frames with the dame color paint used for marking queens.  I use the 5 year methodology because I remove 2 frames from each box each year and replace it with foundation.  That way you dont overwhelm the bees with building all new comb.

I also completely agree with Micheal about meds.  even using meds on a continual basis will form resistant AFB, it is simply evolution and due to the nature of bacteria/viruses we get to see their evolution first hand.  Many people waste gobs of money buying Nosema treatment and feeding it to their bees as well without ever taking a sample of bees and seeing if they actually have Nosema.  Personally I believe this to be bad practices and a waste of moola.

[Michael Bush]

>I was not aware that Terramycin masks the symptoms of foulbrood.

It kills the bacteria that is in the brood, but not the spores.

>  I am aware that improper use of it contributes to resistant strains.

I think the current view of "improper" is the old grease patty method, that some are still using.

> I have been reading "Beekeeping for Dummies" by Howland Blackiston and he stated that the "Terramycin prevents the foulbrood."  Being that AFB is defiantly not something I want in my hives, it seems like the prudent thing to do is to prevent the problem before it starts.

Terramycin prevents most any bacterial infection.  Since you don't want any yourself, you should probably take some yourself every day.  ;)

>I appreciate the information, however, I believe it is up to the individual to decide if they want to treat for things or not.

It is up to the individual.  But we are destroying our market for honey by putting things in our hives that get in our honey when the main market for honey is people who want clean natural healthy food.  AND it's not helping the problem.  All the entomologists specializing in bees that I have discussed the matter with say it's better NOT to treat prophylactically with antibiotics because it can hide the fact that you have spores and not take care of that problem at all.

>...rather than taking a chance of having to burn all my equipment.

Unless the authorities order otherwise, there is no need to burn your equipment or you bees.  Perhaps scorch it.  Perhaps dip in hot parafin or boil in lye water, but not burn.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#afb

"The great beekeeper Dr. John Eckert relied solely on having strong colonies for the control of AFB. If he came upon a colony with AFB, he simply combined that colony with the strongest colonies in his apiary and let the bees clean up the disease" --The How-To-Do-It book of Beekeeping latest edition

From C.C. Miller, A Thousand answers to beekeeping questions:

"Q. You have written several plans for curing foulbrood. Now, if half of your colonies were diseased next spring, what treatment would you choose?

"A. If they had American foulbrood, I would use the McEvoy plan. If it was European, I would wait till perhaps the beginning of clover harvest, and first see that each colony to be treated was made strong by uniting or by giving frames of brood well advanced. Then I would remove the queen and give to the colony a ripe queen-cell or a virgin queen of best stock.

"Q. Can foulbrood be cured without destroying all the bees? If so, how?

"A. No need to destroy the bees; the disease is only in the brood. The McEvoy plan is generally used in curing. In the honey season, when the bees are gathering freely, remove the combs in the evening and shake the bees into their own hive; give them frames with comb-foundation starters and let them build comb for four days. The bees will make the starters into comb during the four days and store the diseased honey in them which they took with them from the old comb. Then in the evening of the fourth day take out the new combs and give them comb foundation to work out, and the cure will be complete."

>unless I am traveling into a place where a known life threatening or deadly disease maybe present.

I don't consider AFB a high likelyhood.  In 34 years of beekeeping I've never seen any AFB in my hives. They have been inspected regularly for the last several years by the State and they have not found any either.  Of course you should keep your eyes open for it and deal with it if you find it.

Of course, it is your choice.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesphilosophy.htm