Filling Foundationless Frames

Michael Bush · May 13, 2009, 10:37:22 PM

>if I misunderstood this quote please explain?

I commonly see them chew out one entire side and 3/4 of the way across the bottom on brood combs when using wax foundation. Of course they can't on plastic.

TwT · May 14, 2009, 09:29:00 AM

Quote from: Michael Bush on May 13, 2009, 10:37:22 PM
>if I misunderstood this quote please explain?

I commonly see them chew out one entire side and 3/4 of the way across the bottom on brood combs when using wax foundation. Of course they can't on plastic.

have not see this much around here ever sometimes the corners but thats about it.

Eshu · May 15, 2009, 02:26:46 PM

I just bought a couple nucs where they chewed out the entire bottom of the foundation on all frames. At first glance I thought they were foundationless until I saw the wires going to the bottom bars.

Doby45 · May 15, 2009, 02:49:59 PM

Those still might have been foundationless. I have seen people wire empty frames to support the comb once the bees build it out.

Brian D. Bray · May 16, 2009, 02:04:03 AM

Quote from: Doby45 on May 15, 2009, 02:49:59 PM
Those still might have been foundationless. I have seen people wire empty frames to support the comb once the bees build it out.

Re-read the last entry again.

Quote from: Eshu on May 15, 2009, 02:26:46 PM
I just bought a couple nucs where they chewed out the entire bottom of the foundation on all frames. At first glance I thought they were foundationless until I saw the wires going to the bottom bars.

That sounds to me like he was using crimped wire foundation and the bees ate most of the wax away. They will do that if they need to build comb for the queen and there's not enough forage to feed the hive, the brood, and build comb, and increase stores at the same time. The reason I will not use or recommend Durigilt under any conditions.

Eshu · May 18, 2009, 01:49:11 PM

Yes, the vertical wires were crimped, so I doubt they are wired foundationless frames.

jclark96 · May 20, 2009, 09:18:34 PM

I have been busy building SHB traps, so I got distracted for a while.

They have now filled 6-7 frames almost completely, and working on 2-3 more. The almost complete frames aren't all the way attatched but getting closer.

I will agree on the duragilt, great stuff until something happens to the wax. They will never touch the plastic again.

Funny, bees have been around for 50 bazillion years, we've been "keeping" them for a few hundred, and we think that we are in charge. I will let them continue doing their thing.

wisconsin_cur · May 20, 2009, 09:42:59 PM

Quote from: jclark96 on May 20, 2009, 09:18:34 PM
I will agree on the duragilt, great stuff until something happens to the wax. They will never touch the plastic again.

Could you just apply a little of your own wax back on the plastic? Rotate out frames where there is no wax on the plastic, bring it in, reapply wax, reuse the next year?

Brian D. Bray · May 21, 2009, 02:46:05 AM

Quote from: wisconsin_cur on May 20, 2009, 09:42:59 PM
Quote from: jclark96 on May 20, 2009, 09:18:34 PM
I will agree on the duragilt, great stuff until something happens to the wax. They will never touch the plastic again.

Could you just apply a little of your own wax back on the plastic? Rotate out frames where there is no wax on the plastic, bring it in, reapply wax, reuse the next year?

The reason bees will build combs on foundation is because of the inprint. No inprint and the bees won't touch it, they'll build all kinds of weird things but not combs where the beekeeper wants them. Remove the slab of wax or plastic and the bees will draw combs from the top bar down.
To get bees to draw combs you either need a foundation that has the cell pattern embossed upon it or not use foundation at all. Those are really your only 2 options. If using embossed foundation, how it is attached to the frame is up to the beekeeper.

deknow · May 21, 2009, 09:58:59 AM

a couple of thoughts:

1. tautz (in "the buzz about bees") talks about the bees removing the bottom of the foundation only of frames where the waggle dance is to be performed. remember, it's dark in the hive, and it's the vibrations on the comb, not the visual dance that is transmitted. the open space allows the wax to expand and contract without being "loaded down"....it allows for better vibration. i'ts also worth noting that the photographs in this book appear to be all foundtionless.

2. in the past, there have been mechanisms to allow one to turn the frames upside down (either frames that can be flipped in the box, or a box that can hold the frames in while upside down). if the comb doesn't fall over, the bees will attach it to the "top" (which was the bottom).

deknow

wisconsin_cur · May 21, 2009, 10:03:11 AM

I guess I was thinking of the pireco frames... I don't have one handy to go check but I thought the plastic also had the imprint.

Michael Bush · May 24, 2009, 11:52:47 PM

Another method used by Jay Smith was to leave the bottom bar down 1/4" (nailed but not all the way in)until the comb was drawn within 1/4" and then push it the rest of the way in.

jclark96 · May 29, 2009, 08:20:46 AM

My hive is about six weeks old now. They have mostly filled 9-10 of the 11 frames. I left them crowded for a little longer than I would have a few years ago, SHB and hopefully to get them to draw the frames out a little more.

I haven't had any problems with the frames, but the state inspector nearly broke one off the other day. Really nice guy, but I guess I am the only one trying this out in my area. In the end they are doing well.