Smoking... what is it's real effect?

jeremy_c · June 19, 2009, 10:37:29 AM

I have read two accounts of what smoking really does.

1. Masks the attack pheromone so other bees do not get the message to sting when their hive is under threat.
2. Causes the honey bees to think there is an approaching fire which trips a natural instinct to horde honey as they may need to evacuate very soon.

I'm more inclined to believe the second as when I smoke, the bees go down onto the honey comb. However, many bees will just take flight and hover around the hive as well, which makes me think maybe there is a 3... Bees don't like smoke and they simply get out of it's path but #3 does not explain why a puff of smoke in the entrance works.

What is the real effect of smoke? Also, how long does it last for you? If I give them a good puff in the entrance, then give them a puff under the inner cover, the bees stay down on the frames for maybe 1-2 minutes, then they are back on top in just as high of quantities as when I peek under the inner cover to start with.

I have stopped using smoke but recent discussions has made me question if this was a good practice. The reasons I quit using smoke are:

1. I don't see any real difference as to when I use smoke vs. don't use smoke.
2. I don't want the bees hording honey for no reason, making them think they are going to have to evacuate their hive.
3. I have not gotten stung yet while doing inspections, smoke or no smoke.
4. The bees quickly forget that they have been smoked and if I want to see the results of smoking, I have to smoke them every minute or so.

Can someone tell me the real benefit of smoking and why it's done?

Jeremy

luvin honey · June 19, 2009, 10:45:12 AM

Glad you are asking this! I have been experimenting with different methods but would love to see an intensive discussion on the pros and cons of each. Smoking doesn't seem to work magic in my hives. However, I was at a bee meeting last night where a tightly rolled ball of baler twine smoking did wonders in the Langstroth we were looking at. But, it needed to be repuffed every couple minutes. The best luck I have had with smoke is when I smoked my hands and not the hive.

I, too, wonder about the effects of smoke on bees, long term or otherwise.

I tried sugar-water spray. Even though the bees were happy, it was also nearly impossible to get them off the top bars, where they were lapping up the overspray.

I also tried vinegar-water spray. It worked nicely. But, I would like to know more about the effects of vinegar and humidity in the hive.

Thanks for starting this thread!!

mgmoore7 · June 19, 2009, 10:50:52 AM

I would surmise to say that it is both #1 and #2 of your points. Maybe your 3rd point as well.

Most of the time, I don't think I "have to" use smoke but it definatley helps work the hive and keep th bees from boiling over the top of the frames so much.

wharfrat · June 19, 2009, 10:52:24 AM

Smoking definitely calms the bees and will definitely decrease the aggressive behavior...that is the main thing.. you have mentioned the main reasons that this is thought to be the case...gorging on honey...masking other smells, etc..

Let me give you a quick rundown on my limited experience with smoking...I'm new, started my hive in June 08..as a new package, the bees were so busy building up that I didn't have to smoke..they were relatively calm..I even tried working them without gear of smoke..as the size of the colony grew...things started to change..and when the nectar flow slowed in late summer last year..they started getting downright nasty..

This year, again the bees were relatively calm...until Yesterday!....I just wanted to give the top honey super a good inspection...I put on the veil and gloves, but was wearing loose fitting shorts..and did not light the smoker....BIG MISTAKE......I pulled the first frame and set it aside...when I pulled the 2nd frame....they pretty much attacked me at knee level...I ran like a school girl swatting and yelling...took about 5 stings to the legs.. ended up having to fire up the smoker to get the hive put back together..

The point I am trying to give you is that just because your bees seem mellow now...don't count on it..

Take care! :-D :-D

sc-bee · June 19, 2009, 01:14:56 PM

>1. I don't see any real difference as to when I use smoke vs. don't use smoke.

You ain't hit the right hive or right time yet :evil: Not sure of reason why it suppose to work 1 or 2 maybe the bees are.

Some bees as you know are easy to handle but hope you don't hit a hot hive without a smoker lit. It can be an experience even fully suited. Especially during a dearth.

Some folks don't suit at all check the temperament of the bees. Yea check for the banana odor a good indicator when you see it or the bees hiking their backside in the air with stinger protruding :) them decide based on clothing and need do I want to continue, dress differently or come back another day.

Just one mre comment in this part. My mentor dose not were a suit and occasionally will wear a veil. He does wear pants ;) and a short sleeve shirt. I am one of those unfortunate ones who the bees do not like for some reason. My expose arms and face are like a magnet :shock: :-D He always laughs about it.

We got in a hot hive that was not normally so in a yard and they backed him in the bushes. He broke a pine top and he was beating them of with the top. Now this is a 30 year plus beekeeper who was running 350 hives. Sorry but I had to laugh :-D as I stood there fully suited.

>I tried sugar-water spray. Even though the bees were happy, it was also nearly impossible to get them off the top bars, where they were lapping up the overspray.

Luvin honey-- be careful this can lead to a disaster during a dearth! Robbing!!!

JP · June 19, 2009, 01:30:51 PM

In regards to #3, remember smokers give off heat, this alone will direct bees away from smoke.

...JP

Bee Happy · June 19, 2009, 02:46:06 PM

they think you're throwing a BBQ and wait patiently for you to return with honey smoked pollen beads.

luvin honey · June 19, 2009, 03:19:48 PM

[quote author=sc-bee link=topic=23177.msg178706#msg178706
>I tried sugar-water spray. Even though the bees were happy, it was also nearly impossible to get them off the top bars, where they were lapping up the overspray.

Luvin honey-- be careful this can lead to a disaster during a dearth! Robbing!!!
[/quote]

Yeah, I know. Dumb, dumb. It was something I read about elsewhere and just thought I would try. Then, it dawned on me that after 6 weeks of being SO careful when feeding syrup, here I was spraying sugar all over the place, basically saying, "COME ROB MY HIVES!!!" I haven't done it again. :-\

ETA: I cannot believe nobody got smart alecky, as in "It may cause oral or lung cancer, create secondhand smoke and possibly even heart attacks..." :D

iddee · June 19, 2009, 03:48:17 PM

I have tried to explain smoking in other posts, so I guess I will regress and say..."time will teach you well." Smoke doesn't start to work well until 1 to 2 minutes after applying, then keeps them calm for 10 to 15 minutes after applying. Any other results is caused by other forces and you need to find out what they are before it becomes chaos.

John Schwartz · June 19, 2009, 04:09:50 PM

Quote from: iddee on June 19, 2009, 03:48:17 PM
I have tried to explain smoking in other posts, so I guess I will regress and say..."time will teach you well." Smoke doesn't start to work well until 1 to 2 minutes after applying, then keeps them calm for 10 to 15 minutes after applying. Any other results is caused by other forces and you need to find out what they are before it becomes chaos.

Totally agree...

Some related thoughts:

* I've learned that "new" isn't always (or even often) "better"
* Folks have been managing/keeping bees a relatively long time. It pays to go back and absorb wisdom over time from older books even and make incremental changes only once you've mastered or at least understand why/how things have been done
* Beekeeping can't be learned overnight or even in one year -- I'd say 3-5 years is a good solid base of experience upon which you can start formulating some real opinions and philosophy
* There are lots of new beeks writing books, blogs, articles and even producing video/movies. I personally listen to only the old-timers -- folks with at least 10 years under their belts who understand both the old-time paradigm (golden age of beekeeping) and the new issues we face in modern beekeeping

luvin honey · June 19, 2009, 04:18:02 PM

I truly respect wisdom and experience. That said, "Just because that's the way it has always been done" isn't really satisfying to me.

I think Jeremy is asking WHY do people smoke--or what is its real effect? Has the effect of smoking bees ever been really studied? I guess that would take a huge number of colonies (all factors possible controlled for) being smoked compared with a huge number of colonies being calmed by other methods.

So, while I really appreciate the incredible amount of wisdom and experience out there, maybe one thing new beeks bring is a tremendous curiosity that can help us all step back and ask WHY we do what we do and WHAT effects it has...

John Schwartz · June 19, 2009, 04:24:11 PM

Quote from: luvin honey on June 19, 2009, 04:18:02 PM
I truly respect wisdom and experience. That said, "Just because that's the way it has always been done" isn't really satisfying to me.

I think Jeremy is asking WHY do people smoke--or what is its real effect? Has the effect of smoking bees ever been really studied? I guess that would take a huge number of colonies (all factors possible controlled for) being smoked compared with a huge number of colonies being calmed by other methods.

So, while I really appreciate the incredible amount of wisdom and experience out there, maybe one thing new beeks bring is a tremendous curiosity that can help us all step back and ask WHY we do what we do and WHAT effects it has...

Don't disagree with anything you mention, Luvin. :) The questions/curiosity are great and I'm (as others are) happy to answer. The more questions the better. I'm just encouraging careful, slow approach to change -- reading books from experienced beeks, etc. To not throw out how things have been done just because you don't know the answers yet or haven't tried them over a good length of time. Jeremy's original post indicates he stopped using smoke. I'm trying to help him in his overall philosophy of beekeeping and change. :)

luvin honey · June 19, 2009, 04:50:55 PM

Thanks for the kind response, lotsobees--I had hoped I hadn't come across as snippy.

I guess I am still wondering, though, if anybody knows what smoking does to the bees. I mean beyond appreciating how it affects their behavior and makes it easier to work the hives.

I guess maybe it would be a bit like parenting. Some would use spanking, others use positive reinforcement. Maybe they both get the desired effect, but some would really care more about HOW that effect is achieved and any positive/negative future outcomes.

John Schwartz · June 19, 2009, 05:07:21 PM

Quote from: luvin honey on June 19, 2009, 04:50:55 PM
Thanks for the kind response, lotsobees--I had hoped I hadn't come across as snippy.

I guess I am still wondering, though, if anybody knows what smoking does to the bees. I mean beyond appreciating how it affects their behavior and makes it easier to work the hives.

I guess maybe it would be a bit like parenting. Some would use spanking, others use positive reinforcement. Maybe they both get the desired effect, but some would really care more about HOW that effect is achieved and any positive/negative future outcomes.

You're welcome -- we're all on the same team, hehe. :)

What I've read (I'm reticent to drop url's to a few good articles/blog posts out there) about WHY:

* Smoke takes advantage of bees natural/created response to fire. It causes them to gorge on honey (you can verify that quite easily) as they think they'll be leavin soon.
* Once engorged with honey (or, at least partially so), the bees are much more docile. Why? It's similar to the process of swarming--they engorge with honey for the trip. When catching a newly landed swarm, you can stick your hand in them without harm often because they're happy/full/distracted.

And, just practically, I always smoke 'em (only as much needed which is a learned practice). Why?

* It protects the bees first and foremost -- moves em where needed so they aren't squished when moving boxes/frames
* It definitely suppresses the few guard bees that might be upset and prevents them from communicating their feelings to rest of hive. How? Either pheromones are masked or the others are more concerned about engorging, not sure.
* To protect my kids/visitors who might be with me (which is often). It's a proven method despite the unknowns, etc.
* Towards end of season here (July/August), its a must when robbing honey/forcing bees down to lower boxes.

Blessings,
John Schwartz

iddee · June 19, 2009, 05:55:32 PM

Like John said, there's nothing wrong with looking for and trying new ways. It's just that it is much safer and successful if you wait until you understand the tried and true ways first. Then make your changes with knowledge, not the redneck "Hold my beer and watch this" method.

Smoke works. Learn it and explore the whys of it, then look for better ways.
Don't just jump in trying all kinds of stuff that may work, or may get you killed.

PS...Cops don't use positive reinforcement, so don't cry when the little darling receives 5 to 10.

jeremy_c · June 19, 2009, 05:57:10 PM

Quote from: lotsobees on June 19, 2009, 04:24:11 PM
I'm just encouraging careful, slow approach to change -- reading books from experienced beeks, etc. To not throw out how things have been done just because you don't know the answers yet or haven't tried them over a good length of time. Jeremy's original post indicates he stopped using smoke. I'm trying to help him in his overall philosophy of beekeeping and change. :)

I guess my problem is that I may read too much. I have read some books on organic bee keeping and that's where the information came from about the bees hording honey. The typical, well respected books says that it masks their attack pheromone which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me as that would mean it would only be of value if you had the signal of mass attack. Some beeks, one of my local friends who has been bee keeping for many, many years (he's a retired county inspector) has stopped smoking totally as well.

I guess when I started bee keeping I thought it was more of a science than it really is. The more I read the more I think that just about anything will work but everyone has their favorite way of doing things, many time which equates to them thinking it's the right way of doing things.

I'm not saying this solely for smoking but in general practice. For instance, one local beek (not the retired inspector) who has been keeping bees for more than 40 years now only uses boardman feeders and says anything else is a waste of time/money/time. Other beeks (local and on the forum) steer you so far away from boardman feeders that you would think they are cancerous, and you know what? His bees survive, he gets enough honey income to live off of as well as many other beeks who swear against them.

There just seems to be 50 sides to every story and it seems that 49 of them are right :-) It's pretty confusing to go through your first year trying to make informed decisions about your actions.

Jeremy

John Schwartz · June 19, 2009, 06:02:16 PM

Would be fun to hear a report from your county inspector friend about why he doesn't smoke.

Also, nothing wrong with trying to go smokeless over a years time and let us all know your experience at the end. Have fun!

jeremy_c · June 19, 2009, 06:15:45 PM

Quote from: lotsobees on June 19, 2009, 06:02:16 PM
Also, nothing wrong with trying to go smokeless over a years time and let us all know your experience at the end. Have fun!

From what I am understanding, I'm not sure I'd want to go that route! I was out with yet another friend (who does smoke) catching a swarm from his apiary. It was about 15' up in a pine tree wrapped around the main trunk. Unsure of what to do, he took up a bucket, his bee brush, and would brush as many as he could into the bucket, then walk down the ladder, dump them in the hive and repeat.

They got a little upset at that tactic :-) I got stung three times. I was just a by stander (maybe 10 feet away or so). Two in the back of the neck, one in my forearm. The ones in the back of the neck did hardly nothing but sting a little for 5-10 minutes. The one on my forearm got a little welt almost right away. Then for the next 12-15 hours swelled up quite a bit. It was mid forearm and the swelling went just to the wrist on one end and almost to the elbow on the other. It stayed that way for the next 24 hours then the swelling went away.

I am unsure of what would happen if that would have been in my neck or worse yet, multiple stings in my neck. I'm not sure I want to find out. I guess my decision to go smokeless was simply because I was led to believe that bees are my best friend.

Jeremy

jeremy_c · June 19, 2009, 06:17:12 PM

Oh, also major on the thinking of me going smokeless was the thought that bees go into a mode thinking they are going to have to evacuate then horde a bunch of honey, thus causing a disruption in the normal workings of a hive for upwards of 5-6 hours even after I leave (them putting the honey back, getting things back in order and starting their normal routine again).

Jeremy

John Schwartz · June 19, 2009, 06:25:41 PM

Quote from: jeremy_c on June 19, 2009, 06:17:12 PM
Oh, also major on the thinking of me going smokeless was the thought that bees go into a mode thinking they are going to have to evacuate then horde a bunch of honey, thus causing a disruption in the normal workings of a hive for upwards of 5-6 hours even after I leave (them putting the honey back, getting things back in order and starting their normal routine again).

Sure, that's reasonable (and good) to be thinking that direction. I think it's a matter of weighing the potential good of a well-timed/routine hive check (finding your not queen-right for example) compared to the minor disruption to the hive. :)