REVERSING THE HIVES??

lakeman · August 05, 2009, 03:39:21 PM

A story in the Augaust Bee Culture about a commercial bee keeper, She says her first entrance into her hives in the spring, is a day of inspecting, equalizing, and reversing the hives? :? :? :? I know the inspecting, and I imagine the equalizing would be if she finds a real strong hive, next to a weaker one she would switch some frames, strong for weak and vice versa, am I correct? I do not recall seeing the term reversing used when checking the hives in the spring, would this be, with two brood boxes, switching bottom to top, and putting top one on the bottom? If so, for what purpose? :?

John Schwartz · August 05, 2009, 04:08:58 PM

Quote from: lakeman on August 05, 2009, 03:39:21 PM
a story in the Augaust Bee Culture about a commercial bee keeper, She says her first entrance into her hives in the spring, is a day of inspecting, equalizing, and reversing the hives? :? :? :? I know the inspecting, and I imagine the equalizing would be if she finds a real strong hive, next to a weaker one she would switch some frames, strong for weak and vice versa, am I correct? I do not recall seeing the term reversing used when checking the hives in the spring, would this be, with two brood boxes, switching bottom to top, and putting top one on the bottom? If so, for what purpose? :?

Yes -- bees tend to move upwards. If you have two brood boxes, it's a great swarm control measure to reverse them once/twice in a year if it warrants.

Kathyp · August 05, 2009, 04:33:11 PM

i don't think very many people routinely reverse boxes anymore. moving a few frames is effective and less labor intensive. when i do a cutout and see that the hive has reversed itself, i might start doing it :-)
it is helpful sometimes when you just can't get them to move any other way.

John Schwartz · August 05, 2009, 04:38:23 PM

Quote from: kathyp on August 05, 2009, 04:33:11 PM
i don't think very many people routinely reverse boxes anymore. moving a few frames is effective and less labor intensive. when i do a cutout and see that the hive has reversed itself, i might start doing it :-)
it is helpful sometimes when you just can't get them to move any other way.

Thx for the notes, Kathy. :)

gaucho10 · August 05, 2009, 05:25:42 PM

I used to reverse the hive bodies back in the 70's and 80's. I am now of the new school and DO NOT reverse the boxes. The queen does fine by laying in the upper and then going down to the bottom. Do bees reverse their boxes in the wild? :-D

Kathyp · August 05, 2009, 09:36:49 PM

the one thing i have changed is to add new boxes to the bottom. not honey supers, but brood boxes. it seems to have worked well so far.

John Schwartz · August 05, 2009, 11:46:52 PM

Quote from: gaucho10 on August 05, 2009, 05:25:42 PM
Do bees reverse their boxes in the wild? :-D

Nopes... they don't feed themselves sugar water, dust themselves with powdered sugar, etc etc either. (Trying to find balance and figure out what's best. I have modern books telling me switching is good.)

John Schwartz · August 05, 2009, 11:47:24 PM

Quote from: kathyp on August 05, 2009, 09:36:49 PM
the one thing i have changed is to add new boxes to the bottom. not honey supers, but brood boxes. it seems to have worked well so far.

Tell me more, Kathy! When, why, what happens...

Kathyp · August 05, 2009, 11:53:55 PM

whenever someone tells you to do something you should ask "why". :-D i can not find a convincing reason for reversing. i understand the theory, but do not think it's valid most of the time. of course there is always the exception and i have reversed boxes when all else failed. the darn things are heavy and moving a couple of frames usually accomplishes the same thing.

as for putting new boxes under, it came again from doing cutouts. how do bees expand hives in the wild? they start at the top and work down. the also work out until they run out of room. you never see a hive start at the bottom and work up. i have had no problems with hives moving down so far. i have not even had to swap frames to get them to move.

the only bad thing is in the fall if you have to remove a box because the hive is not big enough to make it through winter with all boxes. it's usually the bottom box that you will need to remove if you have to reduce hive size.

John Schwartz · August 06, 2009, 12:00:23 AM

Quote from: kathyp on August 05, 2009, 11:53:55 PM
whenever someone tells you to do something you should ask "why". :-D i can not find a convincing reason for reversing. i understand the theory, but do not think it's valid most of the time. of course there is always the exception and i have reversed boxes when all else failed. the darn things are heavy and moving a couple of frames usually accomplishes the same thing.

as for putting new boxes under, it came again from doing cutouts. how do bees expand hives in the wild? they start at the top and work down. the also work out until they run out of room. you never see a hive start at the bottom and work up. i have had no problems with hives moving down so far. i have not even had to swap frames to get them to move.

the only bad thing is in the fall if you have to remove a box because the hive is not big enough to make it through winter with all boxes. it's usually the bottom box that you will need to remove if you have to reduce hive size.

Thx Kathy. :)

harvey · August 06, 2009, 12:02:57 AM

KathyP When the time comes to remove the super from the hive in the fall or winter. Couple of questions here. When would I pull the super? The hive has a lot of stored honey in the two deep broods so far. They have not drawn out the super but I believe we are going to have a lot of goldenrod and my neighbors soy beans are just now starting to flower. should i leave the medium super on if they fill it with honey too or can I take some of it?

Kathyp · August 06, 2009, 12:21:58 AM

if you don't have to treat for mites and you don't have to feed, you might as well leave them on and catch the fall flow. just pull them before the weather changes so that you can do a last check and let the bees close things up.

if they have plenty stored in the deeps, you can take the other. i don't know what your winters are like, so make sure you leave them plenty to make it to spring. you'll know when you do your last check.

Joelel · August 06, 2009, 01:39:55 PM

This is my way of thinking,of course I'm always thinking trying to think of better ways. I think bees swarm sooner then normal because of being over crowed. I think,starting out a hive in a ten frame box with ten frames until they get them drawn out and then remove two frames gives them much more room. You must start out with ten so they draw out the comb even then go to eight.When removing two,you space the eight out evenly.
Because bees start at the top and come down,I don't think it's good to add boxes on top.Reason is, they have to go threw the crowded bottom box to get to the top. Giving them more room by removing two frames gives them alot more room to get to the top brood box. Then when adding suppers,add an entrance at the top of the brood boxes.

John Schwartz · August 06, 2009, 01:47:20 PM

Quote from: Joelel on August 06, 2009, 01:39:55 PM
This is my way of thinking,of course I'm always thinking trying to think of better ways. I think bees swarm sooner then normal because of being over crowed. I think,starting out a hive in a ten frame box with ten frames until they get them drawn out and then remove two frames gives them much more room. You must start out with ten so they draw our the comb Even then go to eight.When removing two,you space the eight out evenly.
Because bees start at the top and come down,I don't think it's good to add boxes on top.Reason is, they have to go threw the crowded bottom box to get to the top. Giving them more room by removing two frames gives them alot more room to get to the top brood box. Then when adding suppers,add an entrance at the top of the brood boxes.

When making them 8 frames, how often are you dealing with brace comb between the frames?

Joelel · August 06, 2009, 02:00:23 PM

Quote from: lotsobees on August 06, 2009, 01:47:20 PM
Quote from: Joelel on August 06, 2009, 01:39:55 PM
This is my way of thinking,of course I'm always thinking trying to think of better ways. I think bees swarm sooner then normal because of being over crowed. I think,starting out a hive in a ten frame box with ten frames until they get them drawn out and then remove two frames gives them much more room. You must start out with ten so they draw our the comb Even then go to eight.When removing two,you space the eight out evenly.
Because bees start at the top and come down,I don't think it's good to add boxes on top.Reason is, they have to go threw the crowded bottom box to get to the top. Giving them more room by removing two frames gives them alot more room to get to the top brood box. Then when adding suppers,add an entrance at the top of the brood boxes.

When making them 8 frames, how often are you dealing with brace comb between the frames?

We have just started doing it and no problem,there are others in TX. doing this and they are having no problem with bracing.They say once the comb gets drawn and then you remove two there is no problem.

1of6 · August 06, 2009, 10:19:09 PM

Quote from: lotsobees on August 05, 2009, 11:46:52 PM
...I have modern books telling me switching is good.)

HA. And I have modern books telling me that shakeouts work for getting rid of laying workers because they won't be able to find their way back to hive due to the fact that they've never gone on an orientation flight... :roll:

Kathy's note is right on. Try it for yourself, but ask why. So many of the modern books are written by people that frankly I'd like to ask them how many hives they have right now, and how have they been doing the past 5 years. There's a lot of good knowledge in the forums the past few years that hasn't made it into publication yet. It's just a shame to see people blindly follow the reversing recommendations without knowing when, why, or exact details.

I say this out of caution - my first year was 100% loss most likely brought about by an untimely reversal and the bees not having time to fix my blunder. I'd hope folks would take some advice and "Don't be me."