How deep to go in the brood box for inspections.

Natalie · August 08, 2009, 10:46:56 PM

I am curious to know if swarm cells are generally built in the bottom box or middle etc. or does is it just random.
I have 8 frame mediums and when I do inspections I don't always go down to the bottom boxes.
I did in the beginning of the season and will towards the end of the season when they are going into the fall to check on their winter prep.
At this point if I see that there are eggs and brood in the first box or two I figure all is right in their world so I don't dig deeper and agitate them but wonder if I should be doing that more often in case I miss swarm cells.
Any thoughts?

harvey · August 08, 2009, 10:56:47 PM

Not the answer that you are looking for but if you do go deeper and you do find swarm cells what ya going do? Split? Isn't it a little late in the year for that? Destroy the cells? They will then swarm with out being able to reproduce a queen right ? ? I think I would look deeper, I plan to this weekend or at least the next nice day. But I don't plan on destroying any swarm cells I just want to see how they are doing. I don't know anything about bee's other than what I have read on here and I think I gave you questions not answers, sorry. Hope all is well with your hive. Bob

sc-bee · August 08, 2009, 11:41:59 PM

Article 14 under Bee Culture may or may not help but something to ponder:

http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/all%20walt%20articles.htm

Check some of the other articles on Repo cut-off and swarming.

Disclaimer: I only have 5 years experience but :-D, if boxes are not crowded and plenty room not for congestion swarm, I would suspect you are past Repo-cut off and if cells present would most likely be supercedure cells.

It's hard not to dig deeper, I know I do too often. I'm still in the phase I gotta see :shock:

Check with beeks in your area for a more accurate time line ;) on swarms and when Repo- cut off may be.

Give Walt Wright a call and chat if you like --- he probably would love it ;). His timeline is Tn. but he may be able to help narrow yours down.

Hope this made a little sense --- late and been going since 3:30am :)

Natalie · August 09, 2009, 01:02:43 PM

I am not talking about right now, I mean in general. So yes, if I did see swarm cells then I would split and overwinter them in a nuc.
Even though this is not the what I was talking about in my original question I will address your questions:
At this point if your hive was going to swarm: If you don't split they are going to swarm anyway and you are still going to only have maybe half the bees left in the hive so what is the difference whether you split now or let them swarm?
Its the same outcome to the original hive, half the bees and the virgin queen, only you have the potential swarm hived as well with half the bees and the original queen.

I know its not hard to dig deeper, I have done it on all of my 12 hives this season already but I have read repeatedly not to mess with the brood nest too much if its not necessary.
While it is not hard to do is it wise to do?

Someone even posted here not that long ago why he could not understand why beeks who see eggs and or the queen in the first box keep digging into all the boxes during every inspection as it is very disruptive and they have already seen the most important thing to the hive.
Given that he has had so many years of experience I tend to heed his advice but then wondered about missing swarm cells in the lower boxes.

So the question really is how often do the experienced beeks recommend going into the bottom brood boxes during inspections and where are swarm cells "usually" located or if there is no usual and they could be in any brood box?

I am not questioning my cutoff dates, not sure where you got that idea but I am fairly well informed about those regarding my area and learned even more about splits and overwintering nucs this past weekend from Michael Palmer.
I have had read walt wrights articles but have no idea why I would call him to chat :?

Kathyp · August 09, 2009, 04:25:06 PM

QuoteSomeone even posted here not that long ago why he could not understand why beeks who see eggs and or the queen in the first box keep digging into all the boxes during every inspection as it is very disruptive and they have already seen the most important thing to the hive.
Given that he has had so many years of experience I tend to heed his advice but then wondered about missing swarm cells in the lower boxes.

the answer for me is that it depends. i go all the way through in the spring so that i can shift frames and make sure there are queens and no disease. after that, very rarely. if they don't look right for some reason, or i am concerned about stores, i'll look farther. i do take the top box off from time to time so that i can look into the bottom box, but even that only two or three times in the season.

the two that i lost in spring were two that i had not gotten around to going through. the looked good from the outside but were queenless. by the time i did a good check, i had laying workers. it's worth it to go though well a couple of times a year. other than that, you should be able to just do checks of a few frames.

Natalie · August 09, 2009, 05:26:58 PM

Thanks Kathy, that is what I was thinking. I had gone through the brood boxes in the beginning to make sure they were building the frames correctly, I am doing foundationless and wanted to make sure each box had straight combs. After I had determined that the bottom two boxes were built out correctly I just have been going through the top box and peeking into the bottom ones.
As long as I see eggs and brood I don't want to go messing them up, with all the rain we have had this year I don't want to set them back for even a day.
I did look deeper when I suspected one of the hives was backfilling the brood nest but other than that I have not had reason to in the other hives so I figured I would leave well enough alone.
I will check the bottom boxes before they go into winter just to make sure they are good to go and to clean the bottom boards.

sc-bee · August 10, 2009, 12:37:19 AM

>At this point if I see that there are eggs and brood in the first box or two I figure all is right in their world so I don't dig deeper and agitate them but wonder if I should be doing that more often in case I miss swarm cells.

That's where I got the idea, long day and guess I misunderstood :?!

Quote from: Natalie on August 09, 2009, 01:02:43 PM

I am not questioning my cutoff dates, not sure where you got that idea but I am fairly well informed about those regarding my area and learned even more about splits and overwintering nucs this past weekend from Michael Palmer.
I have had read walt wrights articles but have no idea why I would call him to chat :?

Wow, I guess TMI or a bad day up NORTH or maybe I have PMS! Lighten up GAL!!! And thank you Mame!

Geeze what a good chapping!!! All I meant was Walt is a good source of information and likes to talk to beeks and help and is full of info!!! And the article on supercedure vs swarm cells I thought may be interesting.

Yea guess I got it all wrong --- I know what to do next time :-X :-X :-X!!!

I may bring the moderators on me --- but---- I see where I stand and yes I feel openly insulted so I am posting it openly!

No more from me :-X! Sorry John for the post!

It was a lot stronger --- I rethought it and deleted out of respect for others (Beemaster). And no peace pipe to smoke here ;)!

Natalie · August 10, 2009, 02:52:45 AM

What in God's name are you talking about?
You are insulted? Since I have no idea what you are referring to other than you are apparently offended over my response (which was actually a question why) to the walt wright comment you made I will address that. You put a winking face after it your comment, what is that suppose to mean?
To me it means you are being facitious so that is why I questioned it, it seemed kind of strange to suggest I call walt wright because "he loves to chat and then you put a ;) after it. I had no idea what that was suppose to mean other than you actually meant the opposite and I questioned it.
Other than that I won't respond because your post doesn't make any sense to me.

sc-bee · August 10, 2009, 07:55:42 AM

Quote from: Natalie on August 10, 2009, 02:52:45 AM
What in God's name are you talking about?
You are insulted? Since I have no idea what you are referring to other than you are apparently offended over my response (which was actually a question why) to the walt wright comment you made I will address that. You put a winking face after it your comment, what is that suppose to mean?
To me it means you are being facitious so that is why I questioned it, it seemed kind of strange to suggest I call walt wright because "he loves to chat and then you put a ;) after it. I had no idea what that was suppose to mean other than you actually meant the opposite and I questioned it.
Other than that I won't respond because your post doesn't make any sense to me.

Sorry maybe I misunderstood what I perceived as the tone.

I openly aplogize. I really am not that thin skinned usually ;). I'm ready to go clean the egg off my face now

. So Sorry!!!

Scadsobees · August 10, 2009, 12:13:15 PM

I find the queen cells in the middle...for me with 2 10-fr deeps I'll see them on the bottom of the top deep. Occasionally higher if I have a medium on by then.

I typically just tip the top deep back and check the bottom without going all through them. If they are going to swarm then there will be swarm cells there.

Rick

Natalie · August 10, 2009, 09:31:55 PM

Thanks Rick, that is the kind of information I am looking for and seems to be what people are recommending so that is what I will continue to go with.
Someone at the bee club once mentioned using shims on the brood boxes to protect the queen cells that may be on the bottom of your brood frames during inspections but it didn't click until what you said about tilting the boxes back to look.

I figure it is better to not disrupt them if you don't need to so if I have a general idea of how deep you need to go and how often it helps to plan the inspections throughout the season.
I know alot of people get excited about going through every box each inspection and I did that in the beginning but don't think its such a hot idea now.

The post was really not about actively practicing preventing swarms and all that but just inspections in general and what we normally would be keeping an eye out for when we inspect, such as swarm cells.
Just like looking for eggs and brood of various stages. Just wondering what and where to look for things.

If there is any other reason to look deeper and more often or other things to keep an eye out for I am all ears.

Joelel · August 11, 2009, 01:20:18 AM

What are supercedure cells ?

Natalie · August 11, 2009, 11:37:09 AM

Its when the colony decides to replace their queen for whatever reason, she may not be producing well, have a defect etc. and they build a supercedure cell, that cell will contain the egg/larva that will become the new queen.

Scadsobees · August 11, 2009, 12:57:12 PM

Quote from: Natalie on August 10, 2009, 09:31:55 PM
I know alot of people get excited about going through every box each inspection and I did that in the beginning but don't think its such a hot idea now.

If there is any other reason to look deeper and more often or other things to keep an eye out for I am all ears.

Yeah, I had the same experience. Now I hate getting into the brood boxes if I can help it. I guess its fun when you have 1 hive, but a pain in the kiester when you have 8 hives. And they get so angry....

Now I do it less than I should. If there is a good reason to...weak hive, not growing as it should, increased moths or beetles, chalkbrood mummies, etc.

Rick

luvin honey · August 12, 2009, 12:54:55 AM

This is very timely. Now I have 3 hives and an exceptional summer workload. With the hives having broodnests between 8 and 26+ bars, I am for the first time NOT looking forward to going through it all. Plus, as already mentioned, I have also heard some beeks vehemently claim that it is actually quite disruptive.

I guess it is like some doctor's diagnoses and treatments. Some things, like broken toes, they don't even bother with an x-ray for since treatment will be the same if broken or if not.

Maybe like some things we look for in the broodnest--if I see queen cells, what am I going to do anyway? I can see through my observation window and a brief inspection how far the broodnest extends and if they need more room.

Just thinking out loud here :)

1of6 · August 12, 2009, 02:34:56 PM

Each beek will find their groove as they gain a few years and eventually fall into a pattern. Natalie we know from your posts that you're not to be gauged as a newbie. As long as the proper signs are being looked for, delving too far isn't always warranted unless you're looking to learn. Your purpose for swarm preparedness is at least partially answered in your own posts. I'm south of you in PA, but even here we're not looking for any success from swarms that can be had this time of year. Likewise, if a colony is going to swarm, there's only so much you can do to stop it unless you're going to invest a lot of effort on swarm control divides. I'm not even looking any more this year, but I will be checking periodically just for signs that they're queenright and they've got goo numbers building into winter, with plenty of stores.

You know it's sad though sometimes, because some folks spend way too much effort (more than is appropriate) discouraging new folks from looking into their boxes. This is an excellent learning tool, and sometimes I think that one of the major factors overlooked in whether you should be going deeper or not is "just what exactly you feel that your knowledge and comfort level are." My mentor strongly discourages me from pulling even an outer cover any time it's cold, providing any ventilation in the summer, and especially opening anything on the box after October and before May. He puts them to bed in teh fall, and if they're alive ni the spring, great. This gives no chance for winter monitoring or even emergency feeding if needed. Sometimes the "Bees know best" mentality goes just a little too far. I'm sad to say that he lost all of his bees last year and still to this day doesn't know what hit him. As with anything else, there's got to be a good "middle ground" answer. If you're not sure, do what you need to get the answer you're looking for.

Natalie · August 12, 2009, 03:51:44 PM

Thanks for the post, its true about finding your groove and reaching a middle ground.
In the beginning, like when you take a beekeeping course you are told there is only one way to do it, or at least taught one way to do it and then you start researching and realize there are other options.
In fact I remember sitting in bee school questioning what I was being told because I had learned otherwise that there were better ways to do things.
I always felt more comfortable with my other options as opposed to what I was being taught in the bee club and did what felt right.
This forum has been an amazing resource in finding out what my options are.
I guess all we can do is try different things and find what works for us where we are.
Thanks again.