Need Advice - Drone Brood in Honey Super

[sarafina]

I need advice on what to do with my honey super that is full of drone brood.

This hive is my hot hive that I re-queened 0n 7/28.  Until today I had not confirmed eggs or larvae yet.

I had added the super back in June when the bottom 2 brood boxes were drawn out (this is a new hive started from a package this spring).  I do not use queen excluders and I used wax starter strips on the super frames so I can extract the honey with the "crush & strain" method.  In July I found capped brood in the honey super and a hive so hot I had to re-queen.  I just left the super on, figuring they would eventually hatch out.

Today when I inspected my heart sank when every frame in the honey super had nothing but drone brood.  I thought my queen hadn't made it and I had a laying worker.

I set it aside and looked in the upper deep.  The first frame I pulled had capped larvae - I was ecstatic!!!  The next frame closer to the middle was covered in capped brood in a tight laying pattern so I put the hive back together, satisfied that my queen was ok.  The bees were acting normal - just agitated instead of crazy mad - and I didn't spend 20 minutes walking around my yard in a cloud of angry bees.  All I had to do was walk away from the hive and they left me alone - miracles never cease !!!   :-D

Now - my question is what to do with the honey super.  Should I pull the frames and freeze them to kill the drone brood (helping with the mite count) and feed the honey back to the bees?  Leave it until Fall?  If we get a Fall flow, set another super on top in hopes of getting some Fall honey?

[Irwin]

Do they look like this          http://picasaweb.google.com/irwin453/037?authkey=Gv1sRgCIHKq-KGg8aK-QE#5375579853066988850 

You could just cut it out and get rid of the drone brood and then  crush and strain or freeze and feed it back to the bees

[sc-bee]

If the bottom boxes are not crowded and you have time to wait before harvesting. Find the queen make sure she is in the bottom boxes. Put a queen excluder between the brood boxes and honey supers and let the brood hatch.

[Kathyp]

Put a queen excluder between the brood boxes and honey supers and let the brood hatch.

but remember that drones don't fit through the excluder, so watch that it doesn't get clogged with dead bees, or leave an upper entrance.  i'd let it hatch out and let the bees backfill it with honey if they will.  then you can decide on eating it or feeding it back. 

[sc-bee]

Very good catch Kathy --- I didn't think of that. I usually just leave that frame(ones with brood) in the super on the hive to hatch and the honey is left for the bees.

Could you crack the top lid thus leaving an escape for the drones? What if the queen decides to lay more brood in the super? Hopefully she will stay below (with no excluder) because of brood reduction.

[Kathyp]

cracking open the top is what i would do.  i don't know when/if drones get kicked out in TX, but they might be the last of them for the year.  if you us an excluder and crack the top they can get out and do their thing and the workers can still go up and backfill.

[sarafina]

Thanks for the replies.

I can't find my queen excluder - I will go pick one up this week.  We finally have a feed store carrying bee supplies so we don't have to pay the high shipping or wait. 

I have the top lid propped up for ventilation with a paint stir stick since it is still in the mid-90's here during the day but I can prop it a bit more to make sure they can get out.  I don't know when the drones are kicked out around here.  We have cooler weather coming next week - only going to be in the LOW 90's  :-P

[heaflaw]

What I do is put a 3/4 inch strip of wood over the sides & back (not the front) of the excluder.  This leaves an entrance above the excluder that rain will not get in.

[Joelel]

I need advice on what to do with my honey super that is full of drone brood.

This hive is my hot hive that I re-queened 0n 7/28.  Until today I had not confirmed eggs or larvae yet.

I had added the super back in June when the bottom 2 brood boxes were drawn out (this is a new hive started from a package this spring).  I do not use queen excluders and I used wax starter strips on the super frames so I can extract the honey with the "crush & strain" method.  In July I found capped brood in the honey super and a hive so hot I had to re-queen.  I just left the super on, figuring they would eventually hatch out.

Today when I inspected my heart sank when every frame in the honey super had nothing but drone brood.  I thought my queen hadn't made it and I had a laying worker.

I set it aside and looked in the upper deep.  The first frame I pulled had capped larvae - I was ecstatic!!!  The next frame closer to the middle was covered in capped brood in a tight laying pattern so I put the hive back together, satisfied that my queen was ok.  The bees were acting normal - just agitated instead of crazy mad - and I didn't spend 20 minutes walking around my yard in a cloud of angry bees.  All I had to do was walk away from the hive and they left me alone - miracles never cease !!!   :-D

Now - my question is what to do with the honey super.  Should I pull the frames and freeze them to kill the drone brood (helping with the mite count) and feed the honey back to the bees?  Leave it until Fall?  If we get a Fall flow, set another super on top in hopes of getting some Fall honey?

I hate to say this but With all that drone,I would have to see my queen.I would still be worried about laying workers.

[chiggerbait]

My 2 cents, did you release the new queen in this super?  If you did, these were the 1st cells available and since they were drawn out on a flow they were probaly large, hence the drone brood.  If you're sure the new queen is laying ok you can do what you like, but if the queen was released down in the brood box and workers brought her up to lay the drone brood you may have supercedure happening and you may want to let the drone hatch.

Chigger

[deknow]

I hate to say this but With all that drone,I would have to see my queen.I would still be worried about laying workers.

no, that is unlikely to be the issue.

remember, the bees want to be drone right, which means they have as many drones as the hive wants under the circumstances (about 10-15% average).  in a system where the broodnest is all worker comb, the bees have no place to make their drones, especially at a time of year where there are enough resources to draw out honeycomb.

enter the foundationless honey super.  it's predictable that they would draw mostly large cells (for drone brood, and for storing honey...it takes less wax and less time to store honey in larger sized cells), and if they are looking for drones, they will raise them up there.

leaving plenty of room for drone comb in the broodnest is the cure.  let the bees be drone right, and you won't have to fight them in this regard.

deknow

[Joelel]

I hate to say this but With all that drone,I would have to see my queen.I would still be worried about laying workers.

no, that is unlikely to be the issue.

remember, the bees want to be drone right, which means they have as many drones as the hive wants under the circumstances (about 10-15% average).  in a system where the broodnest is all worker comb, the bees have no place to make their drones, especially at a time of year where there are enough resources to draw out honeycomb.

enter the foundationless honey super.  it's predictable that they would draw mostly large cells (for drone brood, and for storing honey...it takes less wax and less time to store honey in larger sized cells), and if they are looking for drones, they will raise them up there.

leaving plenty of room for drone comb in the broodnest is the cure.  let the bees be drone right, and you won't have to fight them in this regard.

deknow

She said,she had brood in the supper in July the same month she re queened.She didn't say when she was just in the hive she had tight laided new eggs. I would have to see the queen or tight laid new eggs and only one egg in each cell. The capped brood in the supper in July will have allready hatched. This tells me they have laid and capped more.

[sc-bee]

>I set it aside and looked in the upper deep.  The first frame I pulled had capped larvae - I was ecstatic!!!  The next frame closer to the middle was covered in capped brood in a tight laying pattern so I put the hive back together, satisfied that my queen was ok.

Seems she is satisfied that she is queen right ---- The question was:

>I need advice on what to do with my honey super that is full of drone brood.

[sarafina]

Yes, the worker brood that was in the honey super back in July is gone and I was hoping to find only honey there and instead found all that drone brood.

The queen was released from her queen cage in the upper deep around Aug 1.  

I was very relieved to find the worker brood in the upper deep yesterday in a tight brood pattern so I think I am ok.  I didn't find any eggs or larvae in the upper deep when I checked it 2 weeks ago and didn't get a chance to look at the lower deep (thunderstorms popped up).  So, she either wasn't laying right away then or was in the bottom box.

When I checked yesterday I didn't go into the bottom box since I found a nice brood pattern in the upper box.

I will put in a queen excluder this weekend and prop the top lid so they can get out.

[Joelel]

Yes, the worker brood that was in the honey super back in July is gone and I was hoping to find only honey there and instead found all that drone brood.

The queen was released from her queen cage in the upper deep around Aug 1.  

I was very relieved to find the worker brood in the upper deep yesterday in a tight brood pattern so I think I am ok.  I didn't find any eggs or larvae in the upper deep when I checked it 2 weeks ago and didn't get a chance to look at the lower deep (thunderstorms popped up).  So, she either wasn't laying right away then or was in the bottom box.

When I checked yesterday I didn't go into the bottom box since I found a nice brood pattern in the upper box.

I will put in a queen excluder this weekend and prop the top lid so they can get out.

Hi,People are upset because I didn't answer your question and was more concerned about if you have laying workers. So, I will say,If they are full of drone brood and not much honey,throw it all away if you like or cut the brood out and throw it and you can put the honey back in or squeeze it. If I was sure I had a queen by seeing the queen or tight laid new eggs that only had one egg in a cell,I would be fine but tight capped brood don't tell me I have a queen.
I don't know everything but I don't speak what i'm not sure of.

[sarafina]

Yes, the worker brood that was in the honey super back in July is gone and I was hoping to find only honey there and instead found all that drone brood.

The queen was released from her queen cage in the upper deep around Aug 1.  

I was very relieved to find the worker brood in the upper deep yesterday in a tight brood pattern so I think I am ok.  I didn't find any eggs or larvae in the upper deep when I checked it 2 weeks ago and didn't get a chance to look at the lower deep (thunderstorms popped up).  So, she either wasn't laying right away then or was in the bottom box.

When I checked yesterday I didn't go into the bottom box since I found a nice brood pattern in the upper box.

I will put in a queen excluder this weekend and prop the top lid so they can get out.

Hi,People are upset because I didn't answer your question and was more concerned about if you have laying workers. So, I will say,If they are full of drone brood and not much honey,throw it all away if you like or cut the brood out and throw it and you can put the honey back in or squeeze it. If I was sure I had a queen by seeing the queen or tight laid new eggs that only had one egg in a cell,I would be fine but tight capped brood don't tell me I have a queen.
I don't know everything but I don't speak what i'm not sure of.

I appreciate all who take the time to respond to my questions and offer advice.

Now you have me wondering about my hive.  I thought laying workers only produced drone brood because the eggs are not fertilized.  Drone capped brood looks much different than worker capped brood and what I had in my brood box was worker capped brood.

I haven't seen the queen since she was released but I haven't tried hard to find her.  As for eggs - forget it - I can only see the larvae in the cells or the capped brood.  I have to remove my glasses to see up close and I can't do that with my gear on - without my glasses I am blind as a bat for any distances greater than 12" so I have to wear them.  I have tried holding the frames up with my back to the sun but I just can't see them.

Maybe I can talk my husband into suiting up next time and holding a frame while I take a picture of it (now that my bees aren't so berserk).  We have a decent camera and if I get it focused right I should be able to zoom way in on the image to look for eggs.

[MustbeeNuts]

Let your bees sort it out, if they need drones they make them, I had some do that last year. eventually they hatch and they will back fill it. you should hvae plenty of time before season ends.or you could call it a hive body. and put another super on top if the drone super is full. My take is if you have two deeps and a super the new queen just needed more room. And apparently some drones. Wanted to add if your deeps had frames with foundation and you give them empty frames or starter strip, they usually do make drone cells. I found that was the first thing they made  when I gave them empty frames..

[sc-bee]

<Now you have me wondering about my hive.

If you saw worker brood and new larvae even if you can not spot the eggs, probably no worry. It is not uncommon to find brood/ drone brood in honey supers where no excluder was used. It means she needed more space and moved up and probably has moved back down now.

[Joelel]

Yes, the worker brood that was in the honey super back in July is gone and I was hoping to find only honey there and instead found all that drone brood.

The queen was released from her queen cage in the upper deep around Aug 1.  

I was very relieved to find the worker brood in the upper deep yesterday in a tight brood pattern so I think I am ok.  I didn't find any eggs or larvae in the upper deep when I checked it 2 weeks ago and didn't get a chance to look at the lower deep (thunderstorms popped up).  So, she either wasn't laying right away then or was in the bottom box.

When I checked yesterday I didn't go into the bottom box since I found a nice brood pattern in the upper box.

I will put in a queen excluder this weekend and prop the top lid so they can get out.

Hi,People are upset because I didn't answer your question and was more concerned about if you have laying workers. So, I will say,If they are full of drone brood and not much honey,throw it all away if you like or cut the brood out and throw it and you can put the honey back in or squeeze it. If I was sure I had a queen by seeing the queen or tight laid new eggs that only had one egg in a cell,I would be fine but tight capped brood don't tell me I have a queen.
I don't know everything but I don't speak what i'm not sure of.

I appreciate all who take the time to respond to my questions and offer advice.

Now you have me wondering about my hive.  I thought laying workers only produced drone brood because the eggs are not fertilized.  Drone capped brood looks much different than worker capped brood and what I had in my brood box was worker capped brood.

I haven't seen the queen since she was released but I haven't tried hard to find her.  As for eggs - forget it - I can only see the larvae in the cells or the capped brood.  I have to remove my glasses to see up close and I can't do that with my gear on - without my glasses I am blind as a bat for any distances greater than 12" so I have to wear them.  I have tried holding the frames up with my back to the sun but I just can't see them.

Maybe I can talk my husband into suiting up next time and holding a frame while I take a picture of it (now that my bees aren't so berserk).  We have a decent camera and if I get it focused right I should be able to zoom way in on the image to look for eggs.

Hi,Yes drone brood is capped different then worker brood,you said drone brood in your first post. I sure wouldn't do anything with worker brood,let them hatch or if you have alot of honey frames in your second hive body move them down,just put them in the end of the middle with the other brood and remove the outside honey frames up. Always keep your brood together and don't split up the brood that's there.
I'm sorry I got you wondering, I'm concerned about your hive. The reason I like to see new laid eggs is because,If your queen just died say a week or to ago,you will have capped worker brood and no eggs. If you don't see any queen cells in there though,your queen is most likely not dead,that is an other way to tell. So,if you can't see good,just look for queen cells. You will have three or four or more.
  Laying workers only produce drone brood because they don't lay fertile eggs but queens lay fertile eggs and the workers build either workers or queens or drones from the same egg,depending on what they feed them.

[Joelel]

<Now you have me wondering about my hive.

If you saw worker brood and new larvae even if you can not spot the eggs, probably no worry. It is not uncommon to find brood/ drone brood in honey supers where no excluder was used. It means she needed more space and moved up and probably has moved back down now.

Right you will have larva for about 6-12 days after the egg is laid.