Feral colonies in very remote locations

bee-nuts · January 25, 2010, 08:30:56 PM

Does anyone know if feral hives in very remote locations have survived at all or do feral colonies owe their existence to beekeepers? What Im really asking here is if it is possible that feral colonies exist that still may have a majority of the apis millifera milliera genes in there gene pool? If anyone knows that colonies exist yet in very remote locations that would make you believe that they have somehow survived with mites and are not second or third generation commercial colony swarms I would like to hear about it.

I want to set some swarm lures in some very remote locations and see if I can get some true survivor stock. I have more or less got permission to do this in federal forest land as long as I do not damage stuff and remove everything I introduce when finished.

I hope to spend some time looking for feral honeybees and setting lures where I see them foraging or coming to investigate heated honey or whatever else can attract them. It would be good for my moral if someone could assure me that they do exist in the north. In northern Wisconsin there are pretty good sized chunks of federal forest that I can go in the middle of and be somewhat confident that the feral colonies there would not be a swarm from a beekeeper.

Is there a feral beekeeping organisation? If not, maybe it would be a good idea or just cool to start one and breed from the ones that survive and see what this may contribute to beekeeping. I know some commercial beek use federal or state forests for queen rearing to control drone populations. So maybe it is a hopless situation.

All this said, If a person found feral conlonies that were 70 percent apis millifera millefera and you kept them in a issolated location, would they revert to pure stock over time. I have heard that this happens in some species, like AHB.

Any insight appreciated.

doak · January 25, 2010, 09:07:02 PM

I think it would take a good bit of studying to come up with the answer you are asking.
Here is how it goes,"IMHO" say you have a colony swarm this year. They go 3 ,4 or more miles.
That colony swarms next year, same turn over. go on for 10 or more years like this. what do you have?

Case and point.

My Father-in-Law had bees in the 50's here where I live.
From 1960 till 2000, no one in this area had any bees for miles.
In the 70's and 80's I found bee trees here in the area.
When I bought my first 2 colonies in 2000, I took 3 supers of honey from them in May of that year.
Brought the honey supers home 2 months before the bees was moved.
I drained the honey and set the supers out in my back yard and in 3 days have a swarm go in it.

I have reason to believe these were not 2nd or 3rd generation from commercial colonies.
I cannot say that about any swarm I get now, Except that I have never had a complete commercial colony. Only Commercial queens, that didn't last.

As it happened, neither of the colonies I bought survived. So that is what I started with, Ferrel bees. I have never been,"in 10 years" bothered with Varroa mites. Had a few but with strong colonies the count was always low.

Take what ever you need for safety precautions, take along a picnic lunch, go bird watching, deer scouting, what have you. Make sure to take some sweet bread, cakes, tea or cokes. Lay out a dinner for them, if there is any bees in the area you will know in an hour or two.
Would make a good family outing.

When and if bees do come, let them have something to fill their pouch with and see which way they go. Might even consider taking a little squeeze bottle of honey and a solid jar lid, put a table spoon of honey in the lid and set it a few feet from your picnic quilt.

This is exactly what I am going to do. I think I know where one is.
A honey bee came and checked me out on my wood cutting expedition.

You should be in good shape if you all don't have hive beetles up there.
:)doak

bee-nuts · January 25, 2010, 10:45:20 PM

Quote from: doak on January 25, 2010, 09:07:02 PM
I think it would take a good bit of studying to come up with the answer you are asking.
Here is how it goes,"IMHO" say you have a colony swarm this year. They go 3 ,4 or more miles.
That colony swarms next year, same turn over. go on for 10 or more years like this. what do you have?

Case and point.

My Father-in-Law had bees in the 50's here where I live.
From 1960 till 2000, no one in this area had any bees for miles.
In the 70's and 80's I found bee trees here in the area.
When I bought my first 2 colonies in 2000, I took 3 supers of honey from them in May of that year.
Brought the honey supers home 2 months before the bees was moved.
I drained the honey and set the supers out in my back yard and in 3 days have a swarm go in it.

I have reason to believe these were not 2nd or 3rd generation from commercial colonies.
I cannot say that about any swarm I get now, Except that I have never had a complete commercial colony. Only Commercial queens, that didn't last.

As it happened, neither of the colonies I bought survived. So that is what I started with, Ferrel bees. I have never been,"in 10 years" bothered with Varroa mites. Had a few but with strong colonies the count was always low.

Take what ever you need for safety precautions, take along a picnic lunch, go bird watching, deer scouting, what have you. Make sure to take some sweet bread, cakes, tea or cokes. Lay out a dinner for them, if there is any bees in the area you will know in an hour or two.
Would make a good family outing.

When and if bees do come, let them have something to fill their pouch with and see which way they go. Might even consider taking a little squeeze bottle of honey and a solid jar lid, put a table spoon of honey in the lid and set it a few feet from your picnic quilt.

This is exactly what I am going to do. I think I know where one is.
a honey bee came and checked me out on my wood cutting expedition.

You should be in good shape if you all don't have hive beetles up there.
:)doak

There are shb here but not everyone has them yet. Soon Im sure.

I will be limited to catching swarms because I don't believe the Park system will like me chopping down bee trees. I hope I see some and catch at least one swarm. It would be awesome.

doak · January 25, 2010, 11:34:17 PM

Just take a hive body with frames of wax foundation. Put in a Pheromone tube and set it out.
You can even go ahead and fasten the top and bottom to the box, then all you would have to do is put a screen in the entrance. Wait till your main flow is in. The only draw back I can fore see in your area is having to worry about bears.

If you have access to regular U.S. Forest Service Land I had rather work there than Parks.
If not during hunting season, not very many people around.
:)doak

applebwoi · January 25, 2010, 11:51:27 PM

There are a lot of very remote areas in the Texas Panhandle. A landowner called me and told me about some bees that had taken up residence in the eve of his little cabin way out in the country. I captured the bees and got the queen and took them home to my back yard in Amarillo where I have my other hives. They really took off and did very well and were gentle to boot. However, they didn't survive last winter and when I checked them, they had obviously had heavy might losses, so in this case, the remote bees may not have been exposed to the mites and didn't do well at all. Swarms I catch in town are doing well without any mite treatments so I think really remote feral colonies may not fare as well as some that have been living in the presence of the mites. I'm not really clear on exactly what constitutes a true feral colony anyway. Good luck.

deknow · January 26, 2010, 12:16:26 AM

last year at the southeast organic beekeeping conference, a florida bee inspector said that he knew of a remote area with what he is sure is a.m.m.

deknow

heaflaw · January 26, 2010, 12:31:52 AM

Quote from: deknow on January 26, 2010, 12:16:26 AM
last year at the southeast organic beekeeping conference, a florida bee inspector said that he knew of a remote area with what he is sure is a.m.m.

deknow

Wikipedia says: 'M' lineage honey bees have been found in Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma and Missouri, based on DNA sequencing analysis.

Michael Bush · January 26, 2010, 02:13:17 AM

>Does anyone know if feral hives in very remote locations have survived at all or do feral colonies owe their existence to beekeepers?

I find feral bees all the time that have been feral for a while judging by size and by how long people say they have been there.

>Is there a feral beekeeping organisation?
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/

wd · January 26, 2010, 02:40:16 AM

I do know of some feral bees above the snowline in a not so remote area. I'm in a valley where it rarely snows. I've looked (tried to follow) for them several times but can't find them. The bees are darker and move a lot faster when foraging then what I've seen in the husbandry so far.

Those I've spoken with about one particular colony say they've been there for many years and they're extremely defensive. I have asked one person if he would show me where it is but he said he won't go back. He did give a general area and said to look for bear marks on the tree. Still haven't located them.

I don't believe they're breeding with them selves, the search continues.

JP · January 26, 2010, 10:33:06 AM

Two seasons ago I removed this colony: http://picasaweb.google.com/pyxicephalus/March192008#

Home owner claimed they were in the ceiling for 15 yrs.

Alan Bukley can likely shed some light about your quest, he's in Alabama, his site: http://www.mountainvalleybees.com/

...JP

Pond Creek Farm · January 27, 2010, 09:22:37 PM

I know this is likely a hijack, but JP how exactly did you get that out of there, and what did you do with the comb? It looks like rubber banded in, it would fill many frames.

JP · January 28, 2010, 12:25:48 AM

Quote from: Pond Creek Farm on January 27, 2010, 09:22:37 PM
I know this is likely a hijack, but JP how exactly did you get that out of there, and what did you do with the comb? It looks like rubber banded in, it would fill many frames.

First off, yep, sorry bee-nuts for any highjacking.

That job took me 12 hrs to complete. Had to cut through sheetrock, plaster & very dense wooden lathe.

I found a spot to start pulling sections, once some were removed, it gave me more room to work. It was bit by bit, the thing was like 9' deep.

I filled two deeps with brood comb, got them to the bee yard next morning and added a medium atop the two deeps.

86'd some of the really old comb & saved some for swarm traps. They were the smallest bees I've ever run across.

...JP

John Schwartz · January 28, 2010, 12:28:41 AM

Amazing cutout there, JP!

bee-nuts · January 28, 2010, 03:18:02 PM

Quote from: doak on January 25, 2010, 11:34:17 PM
Just take a hive body with frames of wax foundation. Put in a Pheromone tube and set it out.
You can even go ahead and fasten the top and bottom to the box, then all you would have to do is put a screen in the entrance. Wait till your main flow is in. The only draw back I can fore see in your area is having to worry about bears.

If you have access to regular U.S. Forest Service Land I had rather work there than Parks.
If not during hunting season, not very many people around.
:)doak

The Chequamegon-Nicolet National Forest is where I want to do this. I have contacted them and they more or less said they would be happy to assist me and were very interested in what I want to do and asked me a few questions which I answered as best as I could. I have an application I need to fill out stating what I want to do, why, when and when I will remove all introduced items etc. What bothers me is that I know commercial beeks get permits for queen breeding so they can control the drone population. I personally think it would be a good idea for them to exclude certain areas for the purpose of feral research.

I was planing on using a five frame nuc for the lure. Is it better to use a full size deep? I figured I could easily tie a nuc box to a crotch in a tree with rope or something so I would not damage any trees and easily be able to remove it when the time comes. I know there are literally thousands of bears in northern Wisconsin. When I lived up there I saw bears every week on my way to construction sites. So, I hope a swarm will not be lunch before I can get them If I actually have the good fortune to catch one.

Thanks for all the great information folks. I have been reading a lot lately and it seems to me that we really have no choice but to try to let the bees evolve or we are headed for disaster. I think they can and will if we allow them to. However, If we do not hault the introduction of more pests, viruses and disease, I think we are looking at an impossible situation for the honey bees.

JP · January 28, 2010, 09:43:12 PM

This is what big daddy Bud does, throw a rope over a branch, hoist up whatever size trap (I like big for big swarms) when you get a swarm, you just lower it down, simple as that.

...JP

bee-nuts · January 29, 2010, 12:33:49 AM

Quote from: JP on January 28, 2010, 09:43:12 PM
This is what big daddy Bud does, throw a rope over a branch, hoist up whatever size trap (I like big for big swarms) when you get a swarm, you just lower it down, simple as that.

...JP

Hoisting up the swarm box............. Sweet idea!! I suppose a bigger cavity is a good idea as well. Who id Big Daddy Bud? I suppose I should know this.

Bee Happy · January 29, 2010, 01:13:57 AM

I had to look up 'm' lineage to see what they are.

The feral bees I failed horribly to secure at my sister's house may still be in her area (they were very gentle until they took exception to me being clumsy with them.); I'm also hoping there may be a parent hive or a similar hive nearby. I plan to take a walk-away split out of my more gentle hive and hope to at least capture the genetics. The folks I bought 2 of my nucs from have very gentle bees; and my sister is only a few leapfrogging swarms away from their apiary; possibly the wonderful stock I paid for plus ? years of survival added as a bonus. I also left a box with the comb from the attempted cut-out on so if there's a swarm this year...

Grandma_DOG · January 29, 2010, 01:44:25 AM

On cavity size, there have been 2 very good studies on that. BIgger cavities don't capture bigger swarms. Both small and large swarm look for 30-40 liter cavities. AHB will settle as small as 10 or so while EHB will accept 20.

doak · January 29, 2010, 04:44:33 PM

I coaxed a swarm down out of a tree in my neighbors yard. Up in a white oak tree.
This was a swarm mind me, not an established.
How big was the swarm? I had 3 deeps and 2 medium supers.
They rejected it twice with just 2 deeps.
They occupied all this space immediately, I got 3 medium's of honey from that swarm the first year.
If I were going to put out a swarm trap I would go no smaller than one deep hive body.
If you get a small swarm that can be adjusted, If the box is too small a big swarm may not take it.

If their is anyone here that can predict the size of a Ferrel swarm, then you are in the wrong business. :roll: :shock: :)doak

JP · January 29, 2010, 11:23:18 PM

Quote from: bee-nuts on January 29, 2010, 12:33:49 AM
Quote from: JP on January 28, 2010, 09:43:12 PM
This is what big daddy Bud does, throw a rope over a branch, hoist up whatever size trap (I like big for big swarms) when you get a swarm, you just lower it down, simple as that.

...JP

Hoisting up the swarm box............. Sweet idea!! I suppose a bigger cavity is a good idea as well. Who id Big Daddy Bud? I suppose I should know this.

This is Big daddy Bud with Alan Bukley, during my last trip to Bud's: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/TzAOsFM_blYtKC5gES9zqw?feat=directlink

Deeps make good swarm traps, have caught some that filled a deep and a medium. I like no smaller than a deep for my area.

...JP