Which makes more honey - One strong hive or 2 small hives?

[David LaFerney]

I'm sure there is an optimum population level for a hive to produce honey.  From what I've read on here 60,000 bees more or less.  Apparently it wouldn't be unusual for a good strong hive to make 100 lbs of surplus honey in a good year.

And of course below a certain size a hive will struggle just to survive and won't make any surplus at all.  Any opinions on what that size is?

So, will two hives of 30,000 bees make more or less honey than one hive with twice as many bees?

[doak]

A large colony most likely will out do two smaller ones.
Another thing to consider is because there is a large amount of bees doesn't mean it will all ways produce heavy. Depends on the productivity genes.
Been there, done that. When this happens it is past time to get a new queen.
There fore one small colony may out do a larger colony as for as bee numbers go.
In other words I think what I am trying to say, there is no way to predict this situation.
My honest opinion and experience. :)doak

[Finski]

.
Most of all, good pastures give a big yield or small yield. If you put same size colonies on different pastures the difference between yields is 3 fold and even 5 fold.

Normal yield from canola is 60-80 kg in 3 weeks. Fireweed or raspberry may give more  nectar than canola.   To me 50 kg/year is too small.

Flying distance is an important factor. If canola field  situate  1 km far away, the yield will be 50% compared to nearby field.

I use to put weak hives together for main yield.  5-6 boxes are suitable to canola field.
Small hives became filled in one week and the colony swarm. The hive needs a lot space where bees rippen the honey before capping.

If you put too many hives in one place, foraging is not so effective as several groups at the distance of 1 km.

So the size of the hive.  I keep big hives. But more important is the pastures. If if yout put the best hive on dry pastures or on cultivated corn field, it gets almost no surplus.

If the weather is wet and flying distance is 2 km, hive will not get surplus from canola.

[indypartridge]

There are a lot of variables, but I'd say that generally, one strong hive will out-produce two small hives.

[Michael Bush]

Generally a hive of 100,000 bees will make five to ten or more times as much as a hive of 30,000 to 50,000 bees which usually will make almost nothing.

[Bee Happy]

I can't help but wonder if it isn't as simple as the total number of bees equals total honey production; unless there's a certain 'net honey expense' per hive - sort of like deciding  whether two households will have a better retirement yield compared to one larger household (with everyone working toward the same goal). - Then you have the expense of operating two complete households.
    Sorry, all I  have are more questions.

[Finski]

I can't help but wonder if it isn't as simple as the total number of bees equals total honey production; .

You get that simple answer every summer when yield is over. It is very simple. You count all your bees and then you measure the yield.

[doak]

Re guard less of the number of bees in a given colony. The amount of honey they store will be determined by the kind of sources they have access to and their Productivity ability.
Some colonies are productively inferior. This has already been pointed out.

Finski also pointed out in very good detail what they could or could not have access to.
Just because the number of bees are there doesn't always mean the honey will come.

I don't know how to explain it any better.

Two large colonies of the same strength and the same source of  foraging may have as much as 30, 40 or even more pounds difference in production.
:)doak

[Finski]

We have talked about "meat hives". They are huge hives but they do not brong honey.

I have got explanation to that via chalkbrood.

Explanation is that when hive grows, it must have a balance with nurser bees and foragers.

Bees must be over 2 weeks old that they start to forage. The hive needs one week more that foragers are plenty.

When chalkbrood hive is sick, part of energy goes to dead brood. They feed larvae, but they do not get foragers from those dead larvae. When 20% of brood died, the hive cannot get surplus at all. Al nectar went to feed the hive.

The egg comes now and after 6 weeks that larva should be a forager. It is almost 1,5 months.

When chalkrood hive is sick, it loose foragers and those foragers are missing about  2 months later compared too normal hive.

Then summer becames warm and disease disapears. If the queen is good, it makes a huge brood area in June and after two months the hive  has a huge gang of foragers. In my country it is August and we have not yield flowers any more. That meat gang just die before autumn.

It is same with  a small hive. It grows and grows and spend its nectar to rearing new brood.
It takes a long time before  the hive is "adult" and get a good yield.

[David LaFerney]

Thanks for all the replies - you've answered my question more than adequately.

The reason I asked is I keep seeing the advice to beginners that you will do better if you have more than one hive so that you can give frames of brood from strong hives to weak ones to help them along. 

It occurred to me that while that might make a good practice at times, but once the honey flow is on it might be better to have one strong hive and one weak hive than to have two mediocre ones - or even to combine them completely. 

Finski's remark "I use to put weak hives together for main yield."  was exactly what I was getting at.  Thanks.

How long before the flow would you combine them?

[kedgel]

My 2 cents and another wrinkle in the discussion:  Maybe this should be another string, but I'm assuming when you guys talk about large numbers of bees in a hive you're talking double deep brood boxes.  My first attempt at beekeeping was in TN where I had 2 hives given to me.  I combined the weaker with the strong one.  The 2 deep hive went hog-wild in the blackberry patch surrounded by a clover pasture.  I got gallons of honey from it.  So in this case, at least I think the combining had a synergistic effect on honey production.   That was before shbs came into the country.  My attempts here in FL started last spring.  Between the hive beetles, varroa and other problems, none of my hives got built up enough to have any surplus honey (and I usually don't rob much the first year, anyway).  I have avoided combining hives to a double deep because I was afraid it would give the shbs more places to hide and work their mischief.  This Fall I got 15 lbs. from one that had it to spare due to a poisioning dropping their numbers.  I took 3 deep frames to reduce the area in the hive unnatended by their demise.  I think I have the IPM down now, So I was considering combining a couple of my weaker hives to make a double deep.  Are double brooders impacted more by shbs?  I'd love to hear fellow FL beeks opinion on this...

Kelly 

[doak]

Go for the double deep and use some type of beetle oil trap.  :)doak

[David LaFerney]

Yeah, no matter what other management systems we use, southern bee keepers are going to have to learn to deal with hive beetles.  I had them last year, but they were never a problem.   

[kedgel]

Go for the double deep and use some type of beetle oil trap.  :)doak

I installed screened bottom board oil traps I got from greenbees.com.  They are the greatest thing since sliced bread (with honey on it, of course!  ;).  I haven't seen ONE shb in my hives since I installed them.  That's why I was thinking of going to double deeps, but didn't want to tempt fate and make an opening for them to get a foothold again. 

Kelly

[Finski]

How long before the flow would you combine them?

When the yield is started. If you combine hive and they have no enough work to do, they start to think swarming.  It is good to give foundations too into  hives.

If the hive has queen cells, don't join them. Split it with flying false swarm. Let them draw a box of foundations and they believe that they have swarmed. Them again join them to brood part to get yield.

[David LaFerney]

How long before the flow would you combine them?

When the yield is started. If you combine hive and they have no enough work to do, they start to think swarming.  It is good to give foundations too into  hives.

If the hive has queen cells, don't join them. Split it with flying false swarm. Let them draw a box of foundations and they believe that they have swarmed. Them again join them to brood part to get yield.

Thanks, that is very helpful.

[Michael Bush]

Another option is a cut down split and a combine in one.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm#cutdowncombine

[BjornBee]

The goal for any beekeeper is a strong hive going into the flow. One strong has been shown to out produce two weaker (split) hives.

I am always amazed at the number of beekeepers who split their hives just prior to the flow because of fears of swarming. So they stopped swarming temporarily...and killed their honey crop in the meantime. Makes no sense to me.

[David LaFerney]

Another option is a cut down split and a combine in one.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm#cutdowncombine

That's exactly what I was thinking.  But thanks for laying it out so clearly.

[David LaFerney]

The goal for any beekeeper is a strong hive going into the flow. One strong has been shown to out produce two weaker (split) hives.

I am always amazed at the number of beekeepers who split their hives just prior to the flow because of fears of swarming. So they stopped swarming temporarily...and killed their honey crop in the meantime. Makes no sense to me.

It's just because they (we) don't understand, and it really isn't made very clear. 

I'm going in to my second year, and I've read books, watched videos, and participated online - and I just recently had that light bulb moment that maybe I should combine my two smallish hives into one strong hive and one small nuc for our one honey flow in the spring - and maybe have a chance at producing a spot of honey. 

It seems intuitive that more hives would be better, and until I asked this question I don't recall anyone ever saying that big strong hives produce honey, small hives don't (all things being equal of course).  It's a basic concept that isn't being communicated to beginners.

It probably seems like common sense, but it isn't.