Second thoughts

rottybee · February 10, 2010, 02:45:06 PM

Hi, as I mentioned in a previous post, I have planned to start keeping a couple hives this year. I have been reading a lot, building my hive bodies, painting, etc. After reading about swarming, I got to wondering about how much liability does the beekeeper take on without knowing. What I'm wondering is when neighbors find out you are keeping bees for example and say they find out they have bees in their attic or soffit, will or "can" they I should say,hold you liable for the removal and repairs? It's a shame to even have to think about things like this but in this litigious society now I just wonder how liable a beekeeper could be? I know it would be hard to prove who's bees they were but is this a legitimate concern?
Sorry if it sounds like a silly question. Just trying to cover the bases before I dive into this hobby.

Kathyp · February 10, 2010, 02:50:49 PM

i have never heard of that happening. how would they prove that the swarm came from your hive?

if i were keeping bees in an urban area, i would probably talk to my closest neighbors and make sure that beekeeping would not be an issue. also make sure that theres are no local ordinances that would keep you from having a hive.

John Schwartz · February 10, 2010, 02:57:07 PM

From experience with swarms in populous neighborhood, they would usually happen in middle of the day to early afternoon usually and the bees are quite gentle during this time being full of honey. IMHO, little risk except people freaking out due to ignorance. I talk with neighbors as time/circumstance allows and proactively discuss what a swarm is, what it looks like, etc. Helps alot. (Now, to keep those swarms to a minimum!....)

BjornBee · February 10, 2010, 03:32:22 PM

Regardless of the comments of whether one could prove the bees are from a particular beekeeper or not, it may be best to look at it two ways.

One is legally. If your neighbor gets stung by a bee while swimming in the pool, or a swarm moves into their home, proof may not need to be given for civil litigation. Certainly for criminal prosecution, absolute guilt may be needed. Not so with liability.

"Res Ipsa Loquitor" is a term meaning "That it could be assumed". Meaning a neighbors statement that no problems with bees at the pool, or swarms taking up residence was ever seen prior to your keeping of bees, then it could be said to fall under "Res Ipsa Loquitor". Meaning it could reasonably be assumed that bees visiting the pool, or bees taking up residence, were from your hive(s). No absolute proof is needed to "identify" the bees were actually from your hive. It may be your responsibility to prove they are not.

The idea that a beekeeper of 5 hives standing at the fence of a neighbor, and crying "You can not prove they were my bees" after a four year old child gets stung, while suggesting that the bee were from the next nearest beekeeper a mile away, is a weak position in court. It could be assumed that the bee was from your hives 75 feet away. And any jury would probably be handing that family a settlement.

Two...the other more practical discussion. I have never heard of someone being sued over a bee sting or a swarm in the attic. But I bet many beekeepers go WAY beyond normal procedure when such items are a problem. Personally, I would not mention a 300 dollar fee to remove bees from the wall of the neighbors house that happens to be 100 feet from your apiary. ;)

Scadsobees · February 10, 2010, 04:47:17 PM

And practically, the bees will likely decide to make a hive in a place that is at least a block or more away. Outside of a block there probably aren't too many people that will know about your bees. :-D

As far as stings go, the neighbors are more likely to get stung by a wasp painting their soffit as they are to get stung by a bee. Unless they have tons of dandelions and walk around the yard barefoot (which my kids do). Or I suppose the aforementioned pool example, but there too, there are plenty of other types of bees in the pool.

The biggest problem might be an ill-informed neighbor who is "deathly allergic" to bees and raises a big stink and turns the city council against beekeeping.

Rick

ziffabeek · February 11, 2010, 07:43:12 PM

I talked to all of my immediate neighbors before getting my hive. Not in the "I'd like to clear with you that I'm getting bees" way, but in the "I'm so excited because I'm going to start beekeeping and it's soooo coool, we'll have honey and better flowers and you're not allergic are you?" kind of way. Most caught the excitement and were very interested and even encouraging. Lot's stop by and ask when we'll get honey. I plan on giving a bit of honey (if we get a harvest this year) to everyone on the block.

One neighbor had a friend who was allergic visit and even he was really cool. Kept kidding me that he was going to go check them out. That neighbor is an EMT so she kept him in check. I think it's all about communication, but definitely talking with your neighbors beforehand could help ward off problems later.

My 2 pence.

love,
ziffa

Rodni73 · February 11, 2010, 10:18:29 PM

I live in a suburban block and keep two hives. My bees never bothered my neighbors and at times they shout aT me saying they will send me the bill latter because my bees are working their bass trees or flowers. Two bees even stung my neighbor while he was in my yard but he brushed it off about three years ago. Even Mr. Pain in the (_|_) neighbor who hates my family to death and call the town on my dad *my dad's house is right next to me does not care about my bees. He even does not cut his yard for days to allow the white clover flowers to grow. Last time when
I installed the two nucs.. he just stood at the fence with his jaw opened as I worked the bees in shorts and no vail! At times I worry about the bees swarming this spring and scaring people if they land in their yards. However, I trained my wife and got her a bees suit to she can go get them if it happen. As for litigation... I am already few hundred thousands $ in debt and well I would be happy to give who ever sue me a fair amount of my debt. So do not worry...Just don't go and keep like 20 hives in your yard.. Keep it one or two and enjoy.

ENJOY... ENJOY.. Ain't nothin like a good lunch and then a cold lagger and a cigar and watch your bees work... life is GOOD.

-RODNI

Ollie · February 11, 2010, 10:21:06 PM

I think that you first check on the local ordinances and zoning laws, then you register your bee with the dept. of agriculture.
Maybe you want to tell your neighbors that you have bees, they are usually cool about that and if one is allergic, get him/her an epipen,
about thirty bucks plus a doctors visit.

But lets face it, I am allergic to getting run over by cars and all my neighbors have them. ;)

kedgel · February 12, 2010, 12:15:26 AM

Quote from: BjornBee on February 10, 2010, 03:32:22 PM
Regardless of the comments of whether one could prove the bees are from a particular beekeeper or not, it may be best to look at it two ways.

One is legally. If your neighbor gets stung by a bee while swimming in the pool, or a swarm moves into their home, proof may not need to be given for civil litigation. Certainly for criminal prosecution, absolute guilt may be needed. Not so with liability.

"Res Ipsa Loquitor" is a term meaning "That it could be assumed". Meaning a neighbors statement that no problems with bees at the pool, or swarms taking up residence was ever seen prior to your keeping of bees, then it could be said to fall under "Res Ipsa Loquitor". Meaning it could reasonably be assumed that bees visiting the pool, or bees taking up residence, were from your hive(s). No absolute proof is needed to "identify" the bees were actually from your hive. It may be your responsibility to prove they are not.

The idea that a beekeeper of 5 hives standing at the fence of a neighbor, and crying "You can not prove they were my bees" after a four year old child gets stung, while suggesting that the bee were from the next nearest beekeeper a mile away, is a weak position in court. It could be assumed that the bee was from your hives 75 feet away. And any jury would probably be handing that family a settlement.

Two...the other more practical discussion. I have never heard of someone being sued over a bee sting or a swarm in the attic. But I bet many beekeepers go WAY beyond normal procedure when such items are a problem. Personally, I would not mention a 300 dollar fee to remove bees from the wall of the neighbors house that happens to be 100 feet from your apiary. ;)

Let me clarify a couple of points: First res ipsa means basically, "it speaks for itself". This is usually applied in cases of "strict liability" where liability doesn't need to be proven, as it is relatively clear. Tort liability has 3 basic elements and all 3 must be met to fly. First, there has to be a duty owed. In this case, the only duty I can think of is to maintain the bees in such a way as to not cause harm to neighbors and to warn them of their presence. Second, there must be a breach of that duty. For example, if you have a day-care center next door and you place your hive right next to their playground. Third, if the breach of that duty causes harm or loss, then they may have a cause of action against you. As mentioned in other replies, just be a good neighbor and bring them a jar of honey once in awhile and you'll rarely have any problems. Worse case scenario, if you have a neighbor who is a real A/H and wants to try to sue you, chances are it will never happen. Two reasons: there must be "blood in the water" (meaning a substantial amount of potential $ involved) for a lawyer to touch it. They mostly work on contingency cases that are a slam-dunk. Clearly proving liability would be tough, at best, and unless somebody dies or something drastic, there's no money in it. If it is small money-wise, they can sue in small claims court, but those are usually decided by a judge only and not a bleeding-heart jury and they will have to hire an attorney ($$$!) or else represent themselves. Most lack the savvy to try that--and most jurisdictions charge a filing fee. Finally, I seem to remember something in case law that bees are not looked upon in the law the same as say, domestic animals, and thus aren't under the same degree of control requirements.

Kelly

Two Bees · February 12, 2010, 09:05:21 AM

It does make you think though!

I had a neighbor who recently told me that he had a swarm of bees in his attic. This was before he knew that I had hives (the bee kind).

The first question I asked him was "when" did he have the bees.

His response was a relief to me because the swarm was a year BEFORE I got my first two hives.

Topic dropped!

BjornBee · February 12, 2010, 10:03:35 AM

Quote from: kedgel on February 12, 2010, 12:15:26 AM
Quote from: BjornBee on February 10, 2010, 03:32:22 PM
Regardless of the comments of whether one could prove the bees are from a particular beekeeper or not, it may be best to look at it two ways.

One is legally. If your neighbor gets stung by a bee while swimming in the pool, or a swarm moves into their home, proof may not need to be given for civil litigation. Certainly for criminal prosecution, absolute guilt may be needed. Not so with liability.

"Res Ipsa Loquitor" is a term meaning "That it could be assumed". Meaning a neighbors statement that no problems with bees at the pool, or swarms taking up residence was ever seen prior to your keeping of bees, then it could be said to fall under "Res Ipsa Loquitor". Meaning it could reasonably be assumed that bees visiting the pool, or bees taking up residence, were from your hive(s). No absolute proof is needed to "identify" the bees were actually from your hive. It may be your responsibility to prove they are not.

The idea that a beekeeper of 5 hives standing at the fence of a neighbor, and crying "You can not prove they were my bees" after a four year old child gets stung, while suggesting that the bee were from the next nearest beekeeper a mile away, is a weak position in court. It could be assumed that the bee was from your hives 75 feet away. And any jury would probably be handing that family a settlement.

Two...the other more practical discussion. I have never heard of someone being sued over a bee sting or a swarm in the attic. But I bet many beekeepers go WAY beyond normal procedure when such items are a problem. Personally, I would not mention a 300 dollar fee to remove bees from the wall of the neighbors house that happens to be 100 feet from your apiary. ;)
Let me clarify a couple of points: First res ipsa means basically, "it speaks for itself". This is usually applied in cases of "strict liability" where liability doesn't need to be proven, as it is relatively clear. Tort liability has 3 basic elements and all 3 must be met to fly. First, there has to be a duty owed. In this case, the only duty I can think of is to maintain the bees in such a way as to not cause harm to neighbors and to warn them of their presence. Second, there must be a breach of that duty. For example, if you have a day-care center next door and you place your hive right next to their playground. Third, if the breach of that duty causes harm or loss, then they may have a cause of action against you. As mentioned in other replies, just be a good neighbor and bring them a jar of honey once in awhile and you'll rarely have any problems. Worse case scenario, if you have a neighbor who is a real a/H and wants to try to sue you, chances are it will never happen. Two reasons: there must be "blood in the water" (meaning a substantial amount of potential $ involved) for a lawyer to touch it. They mostly work on contingency cases that are a slam-dunk. Clearly proving liability would be tough, at best, and unless somebody dies or something drastic, there's no money in it. If it is small money-wise, they can sue in small claims court, but those are usually decided by a judge only and not a bleeding-heart jury and they will have to hire an attorney ($$$!) or else represent themselves. Most lack the savvy to try that--and most jurisdictions charge a filing fee. Finally, I seem to remember something in case law that bees are not looked upon in the law the same as say, domestic animals, and thus aren't under the same degree of control requirements.

Kelly

Kelly,
Thank you. I knew my tranlation was off a bit. My latin is not what it used to be.... :-D

While I was discussing that it could happen, you expanded into what a case would involve or detail. Two different things.

Of course a liability case would include (as you mention) looking into the severity of the event (Death, etc.) and the ignorance of the beekeeper (are they registered, in defiance of zoning, etc.), the consideration of one's neighbors (announcing the keeping of bees) and even if there were previous events (discussions and neighbor spats)...this is what would be looked in determining the case or the possibility of even moving forward.

My comments were that it can happen. Although the chances are small, it still exists. My point was from the constant stance beekeepers take by claiming "They could not prove they were my bees". a point that in court might prove useless.

Beekeepers need to follow the law, register them when they are required, exhibit good beekeeping practices, and take into consideration neighbors in close quarters. A lack of these items may increase greatly the chances of lawsuit when something does happen.

Personally I have no sympathy for a beekeeper in a town who keeps 25 hives in the backyard of a quarter acre lot, then has problems and potential zoning issues when the neighbors get tired of the situation next door. And I would feel no sympathy, and give no support when a 4 year child is harmed or killed, while the beekeeper claims that it was not his hives involved, while they sat 75 feet away.

Beekeepers need to be conscience of their actions. And I find the whole "Who gives a crap...they can't prove they were your bees" a bit of a message that seem off target in the world of beekeeping. In that same world, we ask, try to educate, and seek public support for the problems within the industry. And much of that support can be destroyed by one ignorant beekeeper, by his actions (Whether pr oven or not) ;)

Now that is something to think about..... ;)

rottybee · February 12, 2010, 01:43:25 PM

Thanks for all the replies. My plans are to put the hives behind my house which will be about 50 yards behind me. I have neighbors on each side of me about 40 yards away. This would put my hives behind them also and about maybe 70 yards from them. Also the hives would be about 20 yards away from each property line. Does this sound too close?
I wouldn't be required to register my hives where I live.
Like I said earlier, I was just concerned about liability. Let me give an example.
Say one of the neighbors finds they have honeybees living in their attic. They know I have honeybees and assume they came from a swarm from mine. Can they try to have me pay to have the bees removed from their attic?
I don't think my age, health and construction experience would allow me to attempt it. :(
Thanks again

HAB · February 12, 2010, 02:03:06 PM

Some people will "TRY" anything to get someone else to pay for something. But not likely to get a court to agree. Proving they came from your hives would be near impossible. :bee: :bee: :bee:

Two Bees · February 12, 2010, 02:35:01 PM

You can always build some kind of vision break (i.e. lattice) so your neighbor doesn't notice them as much. Keeping them a natural-looking color vs painting white might help.

As far as how far from the lot line, I have mine about 3 feet from my lot line. The neighbor's house is about 40-45 feet off of the lot line and it has not been a problem. He is pretty good about it but I'm not sure that his wife is thrilled. That's the reason that I made sure to give them some honey last fall!

I will be moving the hives off of the lot line about 20 feet before the nectar flows this spring. I'm trying to not be "in his face" with my hives but I don't really have a good, sunny spot to locate them. That's the reason they are beside the lot line now.