Failing queen, laying workers or maybe all is well???

[charlotte]

Hello All!
 Got up to 57 here today, so decided to do some spring cleaning & inspect my hives...Fortunately all were alive & still had plenty of stores.  However, 2 of my hives had quite a bit of drone brood in worker cells. And I did not see any capped cells that were NOT drone brood. I did not see either queen.  However, with first inspection & cleaning bottom boards,etc, they were all over the place, so I am not surprised to have not seen her. The drone brood was confined to only one frame, but seemed scattered.  The eggs that I saw were SINGLE eggs.  No multiples seen at all. They were on the bottom of the cell, although a few appeared to be placed more to one side. I am wondering if I have an early case of laying workers??  Or is it normal for the queen to lay more drones when she is starting up??  There was a ton of activity & bees were bringing in pollen.  Should I wait awhile & see what goes on?  Perhaps I have failing queens?  They were new last spring  Thanks for your help!

[John Schwartz]

Charlotte, what state do you live in?

[charlotte]

Wisconsin


I guess, what I am mostly wondering is do you always see muliple eggs with laying workers???  (I would have liked to have given them each a frame of open brood, but my other queen right hive had only one frame with open brood, and the queen was on that frame.)

[JP]

It is normal for them to produce drone brood coming out of winter into spring. It is a reproductive thing. When do the bees normally swarm in your area?

If I were you I would ask other beekeepers in your area if they too are starting to see drone brood.


...JP

[doak]

Some years early drone rearing is normal. I think this is one of those "some" years.
Some how bees seem to know when it is time to reproduce/throw more swarms, this year is one of those "when" times. Here is the south every one needs to stay on top of things. If the weather continues like it is they will be on the move. Like "Luther" was. :roll: :shock: :) ;)doak

[charlotte]

Thanks a lot JP & Doak!  I had searched around the forum & was wondering that (and hoping) since I didn't see any multiple eggs that it wasn't laying workers & that maybe this was a normal thing.  Makes sense, get the boys ready for virgin queens & swarms. I was tempted to go back in tomorrow & do a careful look to see if I could find a queen or some worker brood, but better to not mess with them anyway, as today I would guess was pretty stressful for them.  We typically don't see swarms here until May.  This is unusually warm here for us so early.  The other two beeks I know around here hadn't been in their hives yet.  Today was really the first day it has been warm enough.  I appreciate your responses, I'll be able to sleep tonight knowing things are well!!  :-D

[Kathyp]

are you saying you have no worker brood, or that you didn't look all the way through to find it? 

[doak]

Will some one tell me how you tell if it is worker or drone brood, (in worker cells).
I would think if the eggs are all the way to the bottom and are all singles, I'd not worry.
The brood will be what it is where the queen lays the respective eggs.
Most times the queen will lay drone eggs in drone cells, if none are present the bees will build some,
somewhere. I am going up for a poll/survey. :)doak

[charlotte]

I saw capped cells that were drones (bubbled capping) in my worker cells.  I am using plasticell foundation.  I was concerned about the placement of the eggs because I have read/ heard that laying workers can't reach all the way to the bottom to lay the eggs.  The eggs I saw were at the bottom. As far as worker brood being present or not, their may have been some there that maybe I missed.  These two hives are pretty strong & all the frames were covered with bees.  I blew alittle to see what was under them some, but not enough to be confident that I did not have any worker brood at all.I did look through the hive all the way, but maybe I missed something. That's why I was thinking of going back in, using little smoke & looking more thouroughly. As far as being able to tell what kind of brood it is from larvae or egg, I don't think that's possible to know if it's in worker cells.  When I am referring to worker or drone brood, I am referring to it being capped, and all of mine was located in regular worker cells, not drone cells.

[Kathyp]

i would worry less about what kind of cells they were in and more about what kind of capped brood you have.  i only ask because if all you have is capped and scattered drone cells, you have a problem.  if you have capped drone cells you should also have capped worker brood.

[charlotte]

Kathy- that was my concern as well..That I should have easily seem some worker brood in addition to drone brood. Then being that the eggs were all singles, I wasn't sure. Although I have heard that the non laying workers sometimes remove eggs. So now I am really confused.  Should I be worried or not?  I guess time will tell, but if it is laying workers, time will only make matters worse right? I guess I should go back in & verify if I have any worker brood anywhere.  Is it possible to have laying workers and not see multiple eggs??  Or perhaps like others have suggested, this is normal for early spring?

[JP]

Keep asking around for a consensus of what's going on in other beek's hives in your area in re to drone brood.

Its hard to tell through the internet what exactly is going on in your hives. Carefully go back in and have a look, but keep in mind your bees may just simply need a little more time, its still late winter mode where you are but spring is just around the corner for you.

Don't freak out just yet, and just don't freak out.


...JP

[charlotte]

Thanks JP.  You are right, I was freaking out.   :-X  The bees know more than I do anyway.  I am going to go back in a week or so.  There is really nothing more I can do at this point regardless, so it doesn't really make sense to mess with them again now. You are right about late winter mode here too.  Unusual to be able to even get in the hives here now.  Perhaps a week or two from now things will have changed.  I do appreciate all the advise on here though.  You guys are great  ;)  I'll holler back after I get in there again.

[Kathyp]

Don't freak out just yet, and just don't freak out.

sorry.  wasn't trying to freak you out  :-D

[Meadlover]

Charlotte,

If you are concerned I would swap a frame from that hive with a frame from a queen-right hive that has open brood and eggs in it.
Take the frame from each hive, shake off the bees, then swap them over, that way if it is a hive with laying workers and no queen, they will now have fertile eggs that they can raise up as a new queen.
This is what I did last week with one of my hives that looked like it was queenless with laying workers, will see how it is going tonight.
Best case scenario is that the hive has a queen, in which case I figure they are no worse or better off.
Worst case scenario is the hive was queenless with laying workers and now raises their own queen up.

Check out this from Micahel Bush's website: Laying Workers

ML

[doak]

I have always heard that they will not produce queen cells if they have laying workers. Unless they feel like superseding. Laying workers make them feel they are queen right. So I've read. Not swearing to it. :)doak

[Michael Bush]

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm

[charlotte]

Hey all-
Ok, it was 65 here yesterday...couldn't resist doing a quick look back in those hives that I was questioning.  Went back in slow & used little smoke.  I ended up finding both queens pretty early off in my inspection, so that was a relief!  As for the drone brood, who knows.  Could be like you guys said- a normal late winter thing.  I plan to keep an eye on these two & I may just re-queen later if I am still getting lots of drones and/or a poor pattern. Like I said earlier, it is pretty unusual to be able to get in the hives so early here. The beeks around here that I talked to, said they hadn't ever really seen this kind of thing before in their hives. Anybody see a lot of drone brood first with no worker brood in observation hives in early spring/ late winter?  I hadn't found any info out there that addressed this, but it seems to be a normal thing, esp. since that was the case in 2 differnet hives. So, the good news is all my hives survived over winter & are booming.  Next issue will be swarm control.  No complaints from me, could be worse! :)  Thanks everyone for your help & input.  Half the fun of this hobby is that I don't think you ever really stop learning!  ;)

[luvin honey]

Well, fellow WI beek, now you have me wondering. I went in on Wed and found the queen (YAY!!! That almost never happens!) and some eggs and larvae. I hadn't smoked and they were fairly populated and angry, so I only got 2 bars into the broodnest. Now I wish I had pushed on to see some capped brood....

Best of luck in productive queens!

[JP]

charlotte, I still would wait on jumping the gun in re to the drone brood. I would wait until spring has officially risen in your area. You could see your queens take off and begin producing a good bit of worker brood along with the drone brood.

Be patient still.


...JP