Colony keeps shrinking...

The Bix · April 15, 2010, 11:48:24 AM

My beekeeping partner and I have four colonies between us. One of them out-produced the rest by far. We've been excited about this year as we planned to re-queen the other using this queen's genetics. However, the numbers in this hive keep decreasing.

I've done a few stupid beginner things. I had a feed jar on the hive starting in February, but the holes were a little too big and a lot of the feed dripped into the hive and the combination of moisture and cold wasn't good. I also moved the hive about 10 feet in the afternoon. I'm certain I lost some foragers as a result.

About a month ago, I replaced the faulty feed jar and I've been feeding them 1:1 syrup with Honey Bee Healthy as well as pollen patties. They're not taking the pollen patties and don't seem to be interested in the syrup. I did a quick peek yesterday only to find a big pile of dead bees on the screen bottom board and ever shrinking numbers. Their numbers are down to about a frame and a half of bees. If I don't do something, I'm concerned that I'll lose the hive entirely.

The nights here in the high plains of Colorado are still going down to the mid-thirties (F) and the days have been very windy lately with high fifties to low sixties. Our other hives seem to be thriving and getting ready to burst with bees, plenty of capped brood, larvae and eggs.

Any ideas?

David LaFerney · April 15, 2010, 12:24:54 PM

Is there any brood at all?

The Bix · April 15, 2010, 12:31:29 PM

David, there was some brood when we inspected a few weeks ago. So, I just figured it was going to take some time to build their numbers back up. But their numbers keep getting smaller.

David LaFerney · April 15, 2010, 12:43:14 PM

Full disclosure - I've almost had bees for one year. Anyway, the accidental damage might have depleted them to the point the population isn't sufficient to get going. Or they could be sick/the queen could be failing.

Assuming you want to preserve the genetics you might consider giving them a frame or two of capped brood and nurse bees from another hive, and also reduce the hive volume way down. If they aren't sick, and the queen hasn't failed that should get them going.

Kathyp · April 15, 2010, 01:01:34 PM

when you looked at the brood a couple of weeks ago, what did it look like. describe the brood as you remember it.

iddee · April 15, 2010, 01:05:39 PM

Check it now. If there is brood, remove all boxes other than 1. put them in a nuc box if you have one. Close any top entrances. Close screen bottom. Reduce entrance to 1 inch. In other words, close them up in the smallest area possible and stop all drafts. If they have 5 lb. of honey or more, quit feeding. That reduces the moisture. Check again in 2 weeks.

JP · April 15, 2010, 01:10:19 PM

I would say its safe to assume your daytime temps are decent as you mentioned your other hives are laying.

I would suggest you go into the teeny colony during the warmest part of the day and verify if you have a queen still. I suspect not, but wish you the best.

...JP

Scadsobees · April 15, 2010, 01:40:50 PM

Have you seen the queen?

If not it is possible for the hive to survive for a while without a queen but then dwindle to nothing.

At a frame and a half they are pretty close to the point of no return. It is really hard for them to retain heat with only that amount of bees. If you could get them down to minimum box size so they can retain heat, and possible an external heat supplement they might make it if the queen is ok. That is about the size of my observation hive, and they'd be toast outside in the early spring.

If the queen is ok...and you want to keep her (sounds like this was your fault, not hers ;) ) you can supplement the hive with a frame or two of capped bees/clinging nurse bees plus a shake or two from other frames, from another hive, just make sure to spray them with some smelly (vanilla, mint, lemongrass) sugar syrup before combining.

Rick

John Schwartz · April 15, 2010, 01:52:43 PM

Bix,

Were I in your shoes, I wouldn't worry about the colony dying (it happens) and would be thinking about 1) preventing swarms with your strong hives and thinking about 2) splits from those hives to give you some increase.

The Bix · April 15, 2010, 02:29:40 PM

The full inspection we did a few weeks ago, we did find the queen, she's still around.

The brood was sparse, but looked fine. There were eggs and larvae as well, just not very much.

Thank everyone for your input. Hopefully I can nurse the colony back from the brink.

The Bix · April 15, 2010, 03:43:00 PM

Quote from: iddee on April 15, 2010, 01:05:39 PM
Check it now. If there is brood, remove all boxes other than 1. put them in a nuc box if you have one.

Iddee, I will be checking on them this afternoon. What if there is no brood?

The Bix · April 15, 2010, 07:00:34 PM

Well, what a mess. When I got to the hive I found a lot of activity in front. Initially encouraged, the balloon was quickly popped. While I hate to admit this, I think it's important to give everyone a full picture...I put the top feeder on the hive last night in the dark. I didn't match up the feeder box with the deep hive body and left a small crack, unfortunately enough for bees to go in and out. So I created an open feeder right on top of the frames of the weakling hive. Needless to say, I'm pretty disgusted with myself.

When I opened the hive I found the queen right away, and very few bees. It was 2:30PM when I opened it up so I assume that some foragers were out. There was some capped brood, but very, very few cells. All in, I'd say that there was only one frame of bees, but they were located on two different frames facing each other. I took those two separate frames, placed them into the 5-frame nuc and surrounded those two frames with three frames of honey. One frame of honey on one side of the bees and two on the other. The entrance was reduced to about one inch.

The activity continued in front of the hive, lots of bees in and out. Since I hadn't seen that much activity in the last few days I assumed that this was robbing and not foragers coming and going. So, I completely sealed off the hive and plan to keep it sealed till tomorrow morning. At that point I will open it up again, one inch wide.

Since I'm not absolutely sure why the hive is decreasing, I am hesitant to add bees/brood from other hives. I plan to leave the colony alone for a week. If they are making a turnaround, I'll add some bees. If not, they'll probably be gone.

Thanks to everyone for all your help, any other suggestions?

--John

Scadsobees · April 16, 2010, 11:07:10 AM

I think unless you want to do a split and use this queen to head up that split the hive is pretty much done for...

:'(

Sparky · April 16, 2010, 06:17:13 PM

With the nights as cold as what you say, it sounds like they struggle to keep the brood area warm enough to expand. I think I would try to put it over a double screen board on one of your thriving hives with a upper inner cover opening facing to the back of the hive to get help with the heat till the nectar flow picks up.

thegolfpsycho · April 16, 2010, 06:42:44 PM

The colony is in dire straights at this point. Keep changing things around and you keep adding more obstacles for them. I would just swap them with your strongest hive, let them get the huge influx of working age bees, and they have a chance. Adding frames of brood is giving them work they can't do at this time. Bees bearing gifts, coming home to the wrong hive loaded with staples, are welcomed and join the workforce immediately. Seen many colonys step back from the abyss, and you don't disturb them by continually opening and rearranging their good work. You can add capped brood in a couple weeks if they are making it, and it won't be a waste of the brood putting it in a colony too weak to care for it.

I have the same situation with one of the colonys at my house, a softball sized cluster. The colony next to it is 3 deeps bursting at the seams. I will be making the same move with these two colonys this weekend.

Michael Bush · April 17, 2010, 12:44:10 AM

And now you know, when people say feeding can't hurt, they obviously don't have much experience at it... dripping was your first problem, humidity was your second and robbing your third and all were caused by feeding...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm

The Bix · April 20, 2010, 03:56:35 AM

UPDATE. I couldn't resist and I opened up the nuc for a quick (and I do mean quick peek) over the weekend. The bees seemed to be rallying from the brink and increasing in numbers ever so slightly.

Today they got another boost. Shaux and I did a cutout (our first actually) in an old historic building. Because of limited access, I don't believe we got the entire colony nor the queen. But we did get some nice brood comb, and enough bees to fill half of a 10 frame hive. We decided to do a newspaper combine of the cutout bees and brood comb with the weak colony. Things are looking up.

The Bix · April 20, 2010, 04:00:48 AM

Quote from: Michael Bush on April 17, 2010, 12:44:10 AM
And now you know, when people say feeding can't hurt, they obviously don't have much experience at it... dripping was your first problem, humidity was your second and robbing your third and all were caused by feeding...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm

Excellent points. Michael, you're far kinder than I deserve, so I'll say it...fourth and finally.... "knucklehead beekeeper"

--John

Michael Bush · April 20, 2010, 08:29:00 AM

>you're far kinder than I deserve, so I'll say it...fourth and finally.... "knucklehead beekeeper"

Feeding is what typically you would be advised to do... not by me, but by most... so I can't call that being a knucklehead. It's all in the details of course and the details you have to learn the hard way, unfortunately...

Scadsobees · April 20, 2010, 08:51:43 AM

Well, if it is any consolation, we've all had knuckles in our heads at one time or another... :-D

Experience teaches us most vividly.