leg removal?

FRAMEshift · May 18, 2010, 11:36:53 AM

Ok, you can see some strange stuff on the internet (present forum excepted :-D ) . I think this may be an old technique but I don't know if it's still in use. Someone was recommending that you can induce orderly queen succession by removing one middle or hind leg from the queen. Apparently this causes the queen to lay eggs in a clumsy, off-center fashion which is noticed by the workers. They start queen cells and eventually replace her. Has anyone used or heard of this method? If so, what would justify it's use?

charlotte · May 18, 2010, 02:15:50 PM

I have heard of this before from an old timer. Either it's because of how she lays or how she moves that the bees recognize her as "injured" and start the supercedure process...I would assume that you would do this because you want to re-queen the hive, but don't want to buy a queen or don't have your own. The idea is that a supercedure queen is better than an "emergency queen"..which is what you would get if you just pinched the queen & left them with eggs. Also in theory the injured queen should still be laying, so you shouldn't have a delay in production while waiting for the new queen to get going. However, I think the general consensus is that a "swarm cell" queen is the best. I like to leave a hive queenless for a few days then put in a swarm cell from another hive or nuc. But again- you end up with a 2 week delay while she is mating & starting to lay. I think it might be ok to try the leg removal provided you have a queen on hand or can get one to replace her just in case when removing or clipping the leg you accidentally kill her. Let us know how it goes if you try it! ;)

deknow · May 18, 2010, 03:17:47 PM

that's an interesting idea...i'd never heard of that before, and it should work well.

the mechanism is that the queen emits pheremones from her tarsal (foot) glands. as she walks around the comb, she leaves a trail of pheremones which, if they are "out of balance" (they are made up of several pheremones from several separate glands), the bees see her as unfit and replace her.

kim flottum talks about this happening in package bees. the queen's tarsal glands are damaged through the screen by the bees unfamilliar with her, and this is at least part of the reason we see such a high supersedure rate in packages.

deknow

FRAMEshift · May 18, 2010, 03:31:50 PM

Quote from: charlotte on May 18, 2010, 02:15:50 PM
I have heard of this before from an old timer. ...

Charlotte, you really summed up the pros and cons very well. One thing I'm not clear on is the difference between the various queen cells. I know that swarm cells are near the bottom of a frame and that supercedure cells are higher up on the frame. Are there other noticeable differences? And how can you tell an "emergency queen" cell from a swarm or supercedure cell?

Are you saying that a swarm queen is better than a supercedure queen?

Hethen57 · May 18, 2010, 06:02:28 PM

It's not really the "cell" location that creates the problem, it is the conditions under which the queen is made and fed that affect your odds of getting a good queen. A swarm is a planned situation, likely good queen genetics because the population of the hive is exploding, where the hive is full of bees and resources to produce a quality queen. A supercedure queen is made out of necessity, but may not be ideal conditions or quality queen genetics, since she is being replaced for bad performance. An emergency queen is made out of desparation where there is suddenly no queen and there may not be the right age larva or proper resources in the hive to adequately feed the queen larva, but they will do what they have to do to try to make a queen.

charlotte · May 18, 2010, 06:29:25 PM

Hethen57 answered your question regarding the different ways queens are made. One thing I might add is that an emergency queen will likely be made anywhere they can make it. In my experience these are sometimes seen smack in the middle of a frame. An emergency queen is the least ideal situation for them to make a queen- they are doing it out of need for survival & often queens produced this way are not as productive either due to larvae being older, not enough royal jelly fed or some other unknown reason. IMO- yes a queen produced from want of swarm is usually the best queen you can get. Interesting idea too of the pheromomes from the feet- that makes sense too. As much as we think we know about the bees, they always know more than we do!

FRAMEshift · May 18, 2010, 07:08:09 PM

Quote from: deknow on May 18, 2010, 03:17:47 PM
the mechanism is that the queen emits pheremones from her tarsal (foot) glands. as she walks around the comb, she leaves a trail of pheremones which, if they are "out of balance" (they are made up of several pheremones from several separate glands), the bees see her as unfit and replace her.
deknow

Wow, I still have a lot to learn! This is amazing and it makes sense. I usually think of a swarm as an unmitigated disaster; something to be prevented, so I had not thought of a swarm queen as an asset. I can see that forcing supercedure might be a good compromise between an emergency queen and waiting for a swarm.

As Hethen57 said, the usual supercedure queen is made under less than ideal conditions from an existing queen that is not performing. Forced supercedure by leg clipping would leave an otherwise healthy and genetically functioning queen in a position to provide eggs for her successor.

Hethen57 · May 19, 2010, 02:45:22 AM

I don't know how hard and fast those cell locations are...I have forced my bees to make emergency queens and they make them in all locations...side of frames, top of frames, bottom of frames. But generally, your idea sounds like it makes sense and I would be interested to hear your results. I am always experimenting with different practices to see what works for me.

NWIN Beekeeper · May 19, 2010, 02:57:43 AM

Yeah, there are some really "un-orthodox" method to "maim" a queen and make her appear inferior to the colony. I just don't find that to be a very ethical way to beekeep when I'm entrusted with the care and comfort of god's creatures big or small. There are much better and more humane ways for me to execute my beekeeping skill that will gain me the same or better results without any torture or suffering.

Michael Bush · May 19, 2010, 03:01:02 AM

I have seen many a crippled queen who lasted several years. I have serious doubts about the technique.

FRAMEshift · May 19, 2010, 08:50:17 AM

Quote from: NWIN Beekeeper on May 19, 2010, 02:57:43 AM
Yeah, there are some really "un-orthodox" method to "maim" a queen and make her appear inferior to the colony. I just don't find that to be a very ethical way to beekeep when I'm entrusted with the care and comfort of god's creatures big or small. There are much better and more humane ways for me to execute my beekeeping skill that will gain me the same or better results without any torture or suffering.

I had the same reaction when I first heard of this method. But on reflection I realized that we can't ascribe human feelings to the bees. I'm no expert on this, but I would not think the queen is suffering pain from having a leg clipped. Maybe someone else knows more about the nervous system of bees.

There are many times when bees are sacrificed for the good of the colony. We freeze drones in mite traps. Virgin queens kill each other. Drones are kicked out of the hive before winter starts. And of course bees themselves are experts in inflicting pain on beekeepers. :-D I would never intentionally inflict pain on any creature just for some weird entertainment value. But as far as I can see, this is an ethical practice as long as it improves the hive as a whole. If the technique does not achieve that end, it should not be used.

Honestly, what bothers me more about this method is that the beek has to substitute his/her judgement for that of the bees in deciding when it is time to replace the queen. MB says he has many queens more than 3 years old, so it's hard to say that a good queen should be replaced ahead of the bees schedule.

NWIN Beekeeper · May 19, 2010, 10:11:27 AM

["...we can't ascribe human feelings to the bees."]

I agree, I have no proof as to how they feel or reason and more than I can of any fellow human being.

["... I would not think the queen is suffering pain from having a leg clipped."]

There I do disagree. I don't think we (or any animal) has pain for no reason.
It's natures tool to make the body know there is something awry.
I can't imagine it would be any different for bees, self preservation.
Else there would be indifferent bees all over the hive missing this part or that.

My thought is, if a mite can tickle them enough to make them want to itch and groom, chances are they feel when you pull off one of their legs.

JP · May 19, 2010, 10:35:03 AM

I have two crippled legged queens that I know of. They seem to be doing just fine albeit they hobble a bit going to and fro. No supercedure cells noted.

...JP

NWIN Beekeeper · May 19, 2010, 11:13:51 AM

["I have seen many a crippled queen who lasted several years."] - MB
["I have two crippled legged queens... No supercedure cells noted."] - JP

Further imperial proof from two credible sources, that cruel or not, the technique may not even be effective.

If the issue of concern is the quality of emergency queens, I'd 'nuc' the queen, and destroy any queen cells capped within the next 5 days from when she was removed. This would effectively leave only queen cells started with the youngest larvae and best feeding pattern (same as the recommended < 3 day old larvae).

I agree with the old addage that bees won't use larvae that are too old, and that queen quality depends largely on hive nutrition and bee population (royal jelly is best produced in the moderately young bees).

"Leg pulling" might be a lazy attempt not to need to re-inspect emergency cells, but it also leaves to question when or even if the bees finally decide to superceed her. If she's tough enough to hang out injured, she might just as well fight off a superceed queen.

FRAMEshift · May 19, 2010, 11:54:36 AM

Quote from: NWIN Beekeeper on May 19, 2010, 11:13:51 AM
["I have seen many a crippled queen who lasted several years."] - MB
["I have two crippled legged queens... No supercedure cells noted."] - JP

Further imperial proof from two credible sources, that cruel or not, the technique may not even be effective.

I think you mean "empirical"... unless you are making a queen joke. (Don't get mad at me; I'm just having a little fun with you. :-D) Depends on what is meant by "crippled". If deknow is right about the pheromone mechanism, the question would be whether the crippled queens have intact tarsal glands. There could be lots of ways to be crippled that would leave the pheromone pattern intact. Maybe JP or MB will elaborate on the state of their crippled queens.

Quote
If the issue of concern is the quality of emergency queens, I'd 'nuc' the queen, and destroy any queen cells capped within the next 5 days from when she was removed.

Are you not concerned about the pain suffered by the queen larvae in the capped cells that are destroyed? I'm just saying that without any real knowledge about what bees feel, this could be taken too far.

Quote
"Leg pulling" might be a lazy attempt not to need to re-inspect emergency cells, but it also leaves to question when or even if the bees finally decide to superceed her. If she's tough enough to hang out injured, she might just as well fight off a superceed queen.

And that might not be a bad thing. As I said, there is a problem with imposing our judgement in deciding when the right time is to requeen. But as far as being lazy, I think the point would be to induce supercedure while still having a laying queen rather than have a big gap in egg laying. That's just good for the hive.

Scadsobees · May 19, 2010, 12:52:51 PM

I don't know if one leg would work, but I bet if you took off 2 legs on one side that she'd be replaced. And you'd have a nice round brood pattern for a bit too... :-D

FRAMEshift · May 19, 2010, 01:55:20 PM

Quote from: Scadsobees on May 19, 2010, 12:52:51 PM
I don't know if one leg would work, but I bet if you took off 2 legs on one side that she'd be replaced. And you'd have a nice round brood pattern for a bit too... :-D

:bee: :chop:

Superdog · May 19, 2010, 02:14:53 PM

Quote from: deknow on May 18, 2010, 03:17:47 PM
that's an interesting idea...i'd never heard of that before, and it should work well.

the mechanism is that the queen emits pheremones from her tarsal (foot) glands. as she walks around the comb, she leaves a trail of pheremones which, if they are "out of balance" (they are made up of several pheremones from several separate glands), the bees see her as unfit and replace her.

kim flottum talks about this happening in package bees. the queen's tarsal glands are damaged through the screen by the bees unfamilliar with her, and this is at least part of the reason we see such a high supersedure rate in packages.

deknow

Thats interesting. I never thought about it that way before. Makes allot of sense to me.

JP · May 19, 2010, 11:14:09 PM

The queens I'm referring to have one stiff leg each. They act just like other queens, searching cells to lay an egg but have to drag that stiff leg around with them. Looks awkward but they appear to be getting by just fine. The colonies are queen right.

...JP