weaker hive\pf-120 question

[Pond Creek Farm]

We have one hive that was started from a package that has just not moved into its upper deep.  They seem to hate the PF-100 I gave them, and in retrospect, I should have waxed it before putting it in there.  There were two or three frames in the second deep with starter strips, and these are filled out to twice their intended size (the bees drew them wide until the natural cell almost touched the plastic on each side).  I have another hive with pf-120 that is drawn and full of honey.  I am questioning whether at harvest to simply pull the medium from the stronger hive and put it over this hive.  Conversely, can a single deep 10 frame make it through the winter?  The deep is full of brood and honey all the way to the walls. I think the queen is strong enough, it is just that they do not like the plastic. 

[fermentedhiker]

One thing you might try that has worked for me in the past is to coat unused frames with sugar water.  When I was using HSC and Peirco I would carry a little spray bottle of sugar water and spray any unused frames with it to encourage them to pay attention to it.  It seemed to work most of the time.  You might try pulling a couple of drawn frames from the bottom deep into the upper get them to move up more.

[FRAMEshift]

We have one hive that was started from a package that has just not moved into its upper deep.  They seem to hate the PF-100 I gave them, and in retrospect, I should have waxed it before putting it in there.  There were two or three frames in the second deep with starter strips, and these are filled out to twice their intended size (the bees drew them wide until the natural cell almost touched the plastic on each side).  I have another hive with pf-120 that is drawn and full of honey.  I am questioning whether at harvest to simply pull the medium from the stronger hive and put it over this hive.  Conversely, can a single deep 10 frame make it through the winter?  The deep is full of brood and honey all the way to the walls. I think the queen is strong enough, it is just that they do not like the plastic.  

There is nothing odd about your results.  Assuming your package was raised on 5.4mm foundation, your bees will want to have cells larger than 4.95 mm to start with.  If you give them any choice.... foundationless or pf-120s, they will go that way.  If you want to get package bees on pf100, you have to shake them out on a box with only pf100 frames.  Once they get established (when all the original package bees are dead) you can add foundationless and they will draw natural comb.  You will never get to natural comb in an untreated hive if you always give them a large cell choice.

When you say you should have waxed your pf100, does that mean you ordered it without wax to start with.  The Mann Lake frames normally come with a wax coating.

[Pond Creek Farm]

The pf100 was old ( a couple of years) and was recycled from other hives that had not drawn it.  I never thought about the options to the bees.  That makes sense that they gravitate to what they like.  But now what are the options? 

[hardwood]

I beg to differ on one point FRAMWEshift. If you put bees in an empty box, in a tree, under an eave, they will draw comb. They might not draw what would be "natural" for them, but they will draw it. I've taken all sorts of bees, swarms, cutouts, bees off 5.4 foundation and put them all in a foundationless environment and they do just what they are programmed to do...exist. They seem to draw funky comb at first but soon establish a routine of drawing what they want.

Scott

[Michael Bush]

If it had never been drawn and they stole all the wax off it it, maybe you should have waxed it.  But they come waxed and I've had no acceptance issues.

[FRAMEshift]

I beg to differ on one point FRAMWEshift. If you put bees in an empty box, in a tree, under an eave, they will draw comb. They might not draw what would be "natural" for them, but they will draw it. I've taken all sorts of bees, swarms, cutouts, bees off 5.4 foundation and put them all in a foundationless environment and they do just what they are programmed to do...exist. They seem to draw funky comb at first but soon establish a routine of drawing what they want.

Scott

You are correct, they will draw comb.  My understanding is that bees raised on 5.4mm will make cells as small as 5.1 mm in their first attempt.  The bees that emerge from 5.1 comb will be able to make natural cell comb... if they survive that long.  The problem reported by most folks who have tried it is that the bees will be overcome by mites before they get around to making natural cell comb unless the hives are treated.

We are doing two tests during the next year on our Carrboro, NC hives:  

1. We will be doing shakeouts of package bees on pf100-only boxes.  As soon as the frames are drawn and the original package bees have gone to bee heaven, we will start adding foundationless frames.  

2.  We will be trying to wean a hive from 5.4 foundation by adding foundationless frames and migrating drawn foundation up to the honey boxes.  We are not going to do any chemical treatments but we will be doing splits to break the brood cycle and frequent powdered sugar treatments during broodless periods.  We'll see which method works better.

[Michael Bush]

All the packages I've put on Mann Lake PF120s have built perfect 4.95mm cells on the first try.  I have thousands of PF120s and most of them are in use right now.

[olky]

i tried my own experiment this year. i got 2 packages on may 8th. started one on pf-120 and one foundationless. i sprayed sugar water on the pf-120. the foundatinless package has filled it's 3rd medium and is ready for a super. the pf-120 is still on its first box. noticed last week that they superceded the queen, hopefully this will speed things up. would like to see it build up by fall.

[FRAMEshift]

All the packages I've put on Mann Lake PF120s have built perfect 4.95mm cells on the first try.  I have thousands of PF120s and most of them are in use right now.

Sorry, I was confusing the medium 4.95 frames with the larger cell Mann Lakes.    We use deeps only because we have long hives.  MB, do you start packages on pf120-only boxes so they are not competing with larger cell foundation or foundationless? 

[Michael Bush]

>MB, do you start packages on pf120-only boxes so they are not competing with larger cell foundation or foundationless? 

Can't say I'm consistent about it.  I start them on drawn comb if I have it.  I start them on Foundationless if I have it.  I start them on PF120s if I don't.  Or I mix all of that...

[Pond Creek Farm]

Michael, I think you are right on the lack of wax.  These were older frames, and they likely havve no wax on them.  I should ahve waxed them before putting them in.  I do not think that the rejection was due to the package being large cell bees since for a couple months now all of the bees in the hive were raised on the fully drawn pf-100 that I put the package on. As for my present situation, however, I have a hive that if something is not done will go into winter with a single deep.  I see a variety of options, but do not know what to do. I can pull the undrawn frames, wax them and put them back in hoping that with feed they will draw and fill the second deep.  I can put a full medium of honey over the first deep (one deep and one full medium is enough here).  I can put an empty medium of PF-120 and starter strips, feed a lot and hope they draw and fill it before winter.  I am not sure if a single deep winters and if so how to do it.  I suppose I could split it into two 5 frame nuc bodies and stack them.  What do you all think?

[bugleman]

PF tip of the century.

http://www.mannlakeltd.com/ProductDetail.asp?idproduct=1722&idCategory=27