Chemicales in the wax?

[L Daxon]

Now that fall is near and and supers are off (or will be soon) and it is time to treat (hopefully preventively) for various things, I had a question about the chemicals staying in the wax.  I went with all 8 frame mediums so I could switch frames around as  as might be necessary/desired.  ( I am also trying to code my frames, i.e. mostly plastic for brood chambers and wood for the supers so I can tell, for the mos part, what has been where.)

So if I treat with a chemical that is supposed to be used when the supers are off, and then for some reason pull a plastic frame and use it in a honey super next year, will the chemical remain in the wax and contaminate my extracted honey?  Or should you never use a frame that has been mainly used in the brood chamber for honey storage?

[FRAMEshift]

So if I treat with a chemical that is supposed to be used when the supers are off, and then for some reason pull a plastic frame and use it in a honey super next year, will the chemical remain in the wax and contaminate my extracted honey?

Yes, it will contaminate your honey.


I don't think it matters that much which frames you use when or where.  Bees move wax and honey around in the hive,  so if ANY wax or honey is contaminated, then ALL wax and honey is contaminated.  If you don't use chemicals, you don't have to worry.

[caticind]

Yes, there will be some contamination.  It's up to you to judge how much is acceptable to you, based on the nastiness of the compounds in the treatment (oxalic acid, meh - organophosphates, eek!) and the degree to which you feel treatment is necessary to have a healthy hive.

If you don't want to have any chemical contamination at all, then don't use chemical treatments at all.

If you don't think a little residue in the honey would hurt you, but want to reduce it, then just make sure you don't ever use brood frames for honey storage.

It's a great idea if you are treating to have different frames for brood and honey, and not to mix them.  Since contaminants of all kinds (including stuff the bees bring in themselves) will build up in wax over time, make sure to cull frames occasionally and replace them.  The goal is not to have any wax older than 4 or 5 years in the hive, even in the honey supers.

I think it's worth noting that preventative treatment for a disease or pest when you don't have signs of a full infestation is not really effective.  Especially the antibiotics used for EFB prevention - using them doesn't keep the causative organism out, and might even encourage resistance to treatment. 

What is it you need to treat for this fall?

[L Daxon]

I was just reading in the catalogues and they suggested terramycin for AFB and Fumagillin-B for nosema kind of as a preventive fall and/or spring.  I am getting some bettle traps and the sticky boards to start checking regularly for beetles (I have seen 2 or 3 over the summer) and mites--I will dust with powdered sugar for mites.  I would like to stay away from the more costic chemicals.

Mine is a first year hive so I didn't worry about pests/diseases over the summer. But  I did combine my hive with a swarm I picked up, and I have since read I should have been careful about adding a swarm cause you never know what infestations they may have just left/be carrying with them.

Should I not do preventive treatments?

Do see the point that the bees will move the wax and stored honey around, but I have seen lots of beeks talking about frames being 10 yrs. old or more. When you have really old wax that has been through mite treatment, for example, can you still melt that down and use in candles or soap?

[AllenF]

Beeswax has a very stable chemical make-up and its properties remain unspoilt by time. It is resistant to hydrolysis and natural oxidization and is completely insoluble in water. The color of beeswax changes with age, for example virgin wax is white but darkens rapidly as it ages, often becoming almost black.  This coloring process is due to the presence of diverse substances in the combs. Pigmentation in the wax usually gives shades of yellow, orange and red through to brown. This difference in coloring has no significance as far as the quality of the wax is concerned.  Older wax is still wax that you can use but will be darker with age. 

As for chemical buildup in older wax.  That most pesticides for varroa control used in Western Europe and the USA are fat soluble substances and will have residues accumulate in the wax combs.  These chemicals would be released when burning candles or eating lip balm.   You just need to look at what treatments you are putting into you hive, how much and how often. 

And with honey supers, trying to keep honey frames separate from brood frames when you run all the same size boxes, that is going to be hard and you need to have all frames marked some way.  I like deep boxes for brood and shallow for honey supers. 

[Jim134]

You can have treatment free bees but in the USA you can not get chemical free bees.Bees can cove or about 8,000 acres.



    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[tecumseh]

snip..
I had a question about the chemicals staying in the wax.

tecumseh:
you might first want to find out what is KNOWN in regards to which substances are trapped by the wax and which are not.  as far as I can tell neither fumidil nor TM when used in recommended levels should represent a problem.  other products used for varroa intervention is likely another question.

as someone here has suggested the bees are a wonderful monitor and sponge for any contaminations that are in your area.  so if you area is contaminated with anything then it will show up in our wax and in your honey.

[Scadsobees]

I suppose in theory it would.

But most of the time they state that so that it doesn't doesn't directly contaminate the honey in the supers.

In reality there would be such a small quantity of whatever chemical that could be there as to be undetectable.  You likely have more worse chemicals in your drinking water, and those are all natural.

Most of the medication that is used isn't very wax-soluble, and residues and contaminations build up over years.  A regular comb-replacement regiment is recommended, even if you don't medicate them.

*****However******
I would recommend skipping the terramycin unless you've had issues with AFB.  After all, you probably don't take regular treatments of antibiotic for strep throat, just in case, do you?   Same type of thing with fumigilan....  I don't use either, although if I need to, I'll probably use them, but sure hope that I don't need to.

[caticind]

Agreed with scads - terramycin and Fumigilin-B are likely not necessary.  We know that the organisms that cause these diseases are present in small numbers in the hive all the time.  Preventative treatment won't remove every last one, but it might help make them resistant.  Save the antibiotics for when you see symptoms.  But they probably won't contaminate your wax.

Idaxon, you see the catalogues suggesting you use these treatments preventatively every year precisely because they want you to buy more.  Catalogues are a great source of new products but don't always give you the best info on beekeeping practices.

[AllenF]

Terramycin and Fumigilin-B are a very small percentage of the "stuff" we put in our hives willingly as treatments.  Apistan (and others using fluvalinate), formic acid, oxalic acid, thymol, Checkmite (coumaphos), Sucrocide, Crisco grease, menthol, bt (bacillus thuringiensis) Paramoth (paradichlorobenzene), moth balls (naphthelene), roach poison (fipronil), and how many others I can not think of.  And these are what we put in there.   What about the pesticides and other "sprays" that the bees pick up in the field and bring home.  Anyone out there needing ideas for a Master's Thesis could do any number of studies of how build up of these chemicals are stored and released from beeswax.  But I believe IMO, that the build up of these "chemical" is no worse than that we eat everyday with our foods, or the products we put on our body.  I keep these chemicals out of my honey supers.  As for the brood wax, I use it until the moths or beetles eat it up. 

[L Daxon]

Thanks guys.  I found this discussion very helpful.  I'll hold off on the preventiive stuff.  And I never was planning on the using the harsher chemicals, at least until I had done more of the IPM stuff first. 

[bee-nuts]

I cant give you exact figures but many of the chemicals in treatments break down rapidly and are un-tracable in a short period of time..  Terramycin is supposed to break down really fast from what my inspector told me.  Tylan takes longer  I believe the pesticides break down too but take much longer.  Either way contamination of comb and honey is why I will only use non-organic treatments as little as possible and as far from honey harvest as possible.  You have many organic options out there for mites.  Preventative treatments for afb and nosema I plan on using in fall only which is also when they are needed most and by spring they should be history.

Information on breakdown times for treatments is on the net, you just need to find them.