How quickly can a laying worker scenario occur? And can it be stopped?

OzBuzz · September 02, 2010, 03:15:42 PM

I was having a look at a nuc I made to save a Queen a few weeks ago- on the ground at the entrance to the nuc I see 'lucky' she appears to have died. I haven't been able to open the hive yet and am hoping that they have either superseded her or are making an emergency queen. If not how long do I have before a laying worker might occur? And is there an easy way to curb that while I get a new queen?

FRAMEshift · September 02, 2010, 04:36:34 PM

It's mostly the pheromone from open brood that prevents laying workers. So do you still have open brood? If not, add a frame of brood from another hive so the bees will have the proper age larvae to make queens. If you don't see queen cells in a week, add another frame of open brood and check again in another week.

It should take several weeks with no brood pheromone before the workers start laying.

hardwood · September 02, 2010, 05:02:03 PM

In my experience it's around 40-45 days.

Scott

mathew · September 02, 2010, 05:27:12 PM

As long there is open brood in the hive, the pheromones from the larvae will prevent a worker to start laying. One of the indications that a worker has laid already and her brood have emerged is the sighting of drones that are smaller in size than usual. As workers don't lay fertilized eggs, only drones will emerge from them. The laying patterns will also be haphazard. Sometimes there will be more than one egg in a comb. But it is almost impossible to locate that laying worker. I've read that when the hive is in a situation where you have a laying worker, you may not only have one laying worker but several.

FRAMEshift · September 02, 2010, 08:55:50 PM

Quote from: hardwood on September 02, 2010, 05:02:03 PM
In my experience it's around 40-45 days.

Scott

Are you counting from the loss of the previous queen or from the capping of the last brood?

OzBuzz · September 02, 2010, 09:08:46 PM

Thanks everybody for your help and advice! i really appreciate it.

I'm guessing that the Queen was probably superseded... she had been in the hive around three weeks and the bees had been going crazy bringing in pollen. I noticed her on the ground last night and she wasn't there two nights ago - the ants hadn't gotten to her - so i'm assuming she was probably evicted that day. There were no stings on her or anything to suggest that the bees had violently killed her (i.e. rejected her at introduction). I'm hoping that in the three weeks she has been in there she has been laying. I've only opened the hive once in that time. The weather is ok today (it's just gone to spring here in Australia) to open and have a look so i will do that this afternoon and see what the situation is. Atleast i have a little time (hopefully) if i need to get another Queen. Tomorrow is still going to be good weather so i can also get a frame of brood from my other hive too although i can't take much as i had already taken two frames of brood about four weeks ago to make up the nucleus that this queen was in.

Thanks again everybody :)

hardwood · September 02, 2010, 09:12:50 PM

Frameshift, from the loss of the queen.

Scott

tecumseh · September 03, 2010, 08:48:49 AM

as far as I can tell about 10 days without a queen.

OzBuzz · September 03, 2010, 09:54:14 AM

Quote from: tecumseh on September 03, 2010, 08:48:49 AM
as far as I can tell about 10 days without a queen.

What makes you say that? Is that because you'd expect any eggs she has laid to be capped after that time?

philinacoma · September 03, 2010, 10:24:59 AM

Lucky isn't the KI queen from that feral hive we collected is she?

OzBuzz · September 03, 2010, 10:26:45 AM

Quote from: philinacoma on September 03, 2010, 10:24:59 AM
Lucky isn't the KI queen from that feral hive we collected is she?

No mate, that's skippy hahah! my wifes naming all of my Queens! Lucky was the one from the small log hive...

I spotted Skippy tonight! she's laying nicely. Did you get my sms with some pics etc?

OzBuzz · September 03, 2010, 10:30:13 AM

Here is a pic of the cells in the nucleus - i'm guessing they're drone cells although you can see some queen cup attempts (I've started a topic "supercedure/emergency cells" to talk specifically about the cells).

philinacoma · September 03, 2010, 10:35:23 AM

No, I didn't get an SMS. When did you send it?

Good way to get the hugs-n-kisses involved in the beekeeping.

OzBuzz · September 03, 2010, 10:44:53 AM

Quote from: philinacoma on September 03, 2010, 10:35:23 AM
No, I didn't get an SMS. When did you send it?

Good way to get the hugs-n-kisses involved in the beekeeping.

Earlier on tonight - it had some photos with it (the two above) so it may not have come through..

I went in to the cut out nuc quickly this afternoon... i found skippy as i mentioned above - they've emptied the frames in the lower super and they're all congregating in the upper so i took away one of them and moved the upper frames in to the bottom super so they could be more consolidated and keep it warmer. She has been laying - albeit not massively and they have been bringing in some nectar. I'm going to put a divider board on and the top super again and put some sugar syrup in there (hopefully tomorrow before the rain set in) I noticed in the lower super some brood (uncapped) that had kinda rotted in the cells - mushy, brown, watery. I did the match test to make sure it wasnt AFB and there was absolutely no stringyness just mushy. It would be normal for them to rot wouldnt it? The caped brood, although dead, wasn't deformed in anyway - no sunken cappings, no holes in the cappings, no scales etc.

I'm going up to castlemaine tomorrow to get some supers and lid and base - $25 for a super wax dipped and three coats of paint, $22 for a lid - wax dipped and three coats of paint, $17 for a base wax dipped and painted... do you want anything Philinacoma?

OzBuzz · September 04, 2010, 10:01:19 AM

So a week without a Queen and some capped brood should be ok to avoid a laying worker? Or should i just combine with another hive and then make another nucleus from that hive when the queen arrives?

Quote from: tecumseh on September 03, 2010, 08:48:49 AM
as far as I can tell about 10 days without a queen.

FRAMEshift · September 04, 2010, 11:31:29 AM

Quote from: OzBuzz on September 04, 2010, 10:01:19 AM
So a week without a Queen and some capped brood should be ok to avoid a laying worker? Or should i just combine with another hive and then make another nucleus from that hive when the queen arrives?

I may be confused as to which nuc lucky came from. Does your queenless nuc have any open brood left? It takes 9-10 days from the time an egg is layed until it is capped. You then have an addition few weeks until laying workers become an issue. Hardwood says 40-45 days total from the loss of the queen which I think sounds about right. I don't think you would have a laying worker problem 10 days after losing the queen unless she stopped laying long before she died.

If it was me, I would move some open brood into the queenless nuc. Let the bees in that nuc raise a new queen. Since you are just entering springtime, they have lots of time to build a strong hive. I think this is less work and more likely to give good results than trying to combine hives. But if you don't have enough brood to spare a frame, then combining is your best (only) bet.

I guess I missed the fact that you have a new queen ordered. Adding a queen to a laying worker hive is risky, so in that case you would want to verify that you don't have multiple eggs per cell and drone-only brood. I generally consider natural local queens to be the best in the long run, unless you have an africanized bee issue or some other problem with local drones available for mating.