Boiled syrup burnt? (Michael Bush?)

[inga]

In attempting to make 2:1 syrup, I boiled the water, then added the sugar, but since the sugar lowers the temperature so much, I kept the heat on under a 2-gallon pot. The sugar mixture did come to a boil before being totally dissolved -- or so it seems.

I ran into instructions re not boiling the syrup, but boiling syrup for bee candy for 8 minutes! That seemed contradictory, but I saw Michael Bush addressed the question on this board by saying that boiling was not the issue, but burning was.

The thing is -- what constitutes burning?

The resulting syrup from the method above has a faintly yellowish tinge and a very faint caramel flavor (better than just sugar!) compared to the usual bland sweet flavor. Does that mean that that batch of syrup is burnt? Or?

And just exactly what happens when the bees ingest such syrup?

I'm willing to discard the syrup or use  it in baking (would last me a long time!) rather than risk stressing the bees.

Inge Anderson
Chase, British Columbia

[tecumseh]

carmalizing is typically the quality that should be avoided.   most of these (sometimes yes and sometimes no questions) issues in regards to impurities in bee feed revolves around whether the bees can fly on a very regular bases.  I have fed somewhat carmalized syrup here with little downside... but then again bees can fly here almost 365 days of the year.

at your locattion....if I had some other use for the carmalized syrup I would use it in that option and play it safe.

[FRAMEshift]

I think the point is that you can't caramelize (burn) the sugar just by raising it to the boiling point of water.  But the bottom of the pan is hotter than that and it's the bottom of the pan that burns the sugar.  It heats the sugar lying on the bottom to above the boiling point of water.  If you don't heat the pan too hot and you stir vigorously, you can avoid burning the sugar.  But it takes longer to get the sugar into solution if you don't heat it as fast.  That's the tradeoff.

[Kathyp]

thing is, you don't need water to the boiling point to dissolve sugar.  even 2:1.  it will dissolve in hot tap water, although more slowly.  it will dissolve quite nicely in water that you have brought to a boil and taken off the heat.

why make more work for yourself?  :-)

[annette]

I just boil the water and add the sugar. Keep stirring until the sugar dissolves and then I shut off flame. You don't need to boil much after that.

[inga]

Thanks for the replies, folks.  :)

There must be a very small quantity of caramalized sugar in the syrup because the flavor and color is very faint. I was stirring most of the time, but it must have happened in between those times.  :(

Based on tecumseh's post, I think I'll just save the syrup till spring, when I can be sure that the bees can fly when they consume the slightly caramelized syrup.

More syrup to make!

Thanks again.

[Michael Bush]

There is always a little color to syrup.  But it shouldn't be brown, just a little yellowish.  I sometimes heat it until it dissolves, but never longer.  It's about two things.  Not burning it, and not making too much HMF (Hydroxymethyl furfural) which some of the sugar breaks down into when heated... and which is poisonous to bees...

[inga]

Thanks for the reply, Michael. The syrup I made isn't brown, but just a little yellowish. It seems that my earlier syrup made without any extras was pretty much clear. I also tasted it, and it had a tiny bit of pleasant caramel flavor. So I figured something was different than usual. (I had always turned off the heat before putting in the sugar before, but I had not usually made a 2:1 syrup.)

Those folks who say that they can make a 2:1 syrup without heating the water must have super-solvent water, or something. ;) I have trouble getting two volumes of sugar to dissolve in one volume of water.

Your reference to "MF (Hydroxymethyl furfural) which some of the sugar breaks down into when heated... and which is poisonous to bees..." is a bit scary. "Poisonous to bees"? What does it do to them? And I assume there's no way of knowing how much sugar breaks down? (If that's the case with that one batch of syrup, I probably shouldn't use it in the spring either? I was thinking of diluting it and feeding it in the spring ...)

For the replacement batch of syrup, I heated the water to boiling, added the sugar, then turned it to low while continuously stirring till most of the sugar was dissolved. (Some refused to dissolve.) I added just over a tablespoon of lemon juice per gallon of water plus a strong infusion of thyme herb, and that syrup has a lot more color. ;) I figure that if thymol is good for the bees, surely a thyme infusion should be good too? (They're taking it just fine.)

[MagicValley]

Has anyone ever put a 10 pound sack of sugar in the oven at 210F for an hour or two?

It seems like hot sugar added to boiling water would dissolve quickly and completely.

Just let the mix cool before putting it in the feeders.

[Michael Bush]

I don't know how to get 2:1 to dissolve without boiling the water.

"Poisonous" means too much can kill them, and a little will make them sick.  A good sign for overheated syrup or honey is color.  It gets darker the more it's heated and the longer it's heated.

[bugleman]

 Mr Bush, what happens when we make bee candy?

It gets heated to a recommended temp of 234 to 240 from my research.