Genetic diversity

troutstalker2 · October 29, 2010, 09:41:29 AM

I caught a ferrel swarm last year and I was impressed with the qualities of this queen. Gentle, good layer, plus they are survivors. This spring at about the end of the honey flow the hive was huge and full of swarm cells, so I made 4 splits. My question is with just one other hive that is not descended from the original queen in the yard will inbreeding be a problem. On one hand you want genetic diversity and the other you want to produce queens from your best queen. The best queens seem to be mutts I get from a swarm or their decedents. If I buy queens I have more problems with them. Besides swarms are free.

David

caticind · October 29, 2010, 10:40:28 AM

Local drones are also free :) and help keep your bees (and daughter queens) muttified.

Given your location, I would bet there are other beekeepers within a few miles of you. Mating queens will fly out to drone collection areas hosting drones from a 5+ mile radius, including ferals and other kept bees. You are not at any risk of inbreeding unless there are very few bee colonies around you or unless you have so many more colonies than your neighbors that most of the drones are yours - in which case you might get drones from your own hives mating with your new queens.

However, "self-mated" queens will appear to have very poor laying patterns (actually they may lay fine, but the workers can smell strongly inbred eggs and will remove many of them resulting in a scattershot pattern of brood). So if you have a good brood pattern, you can be reasonably sure that your queens are not inbred.

If you want a jolt of new genes without buying queens, then make a point of answering swarm calls from 10-20 miles away, outside of your local genetic zone.

Stlnifr · October 29, 2010, 04:37:43 PM

So I know where three bee trees are separated by 10 miles or more. If I am lucky with my swarm traps then would I have good genetic diversity with these feral bees?

caticind · October 30, 2010, 10:28:57 AM

If they are really ferals, and not from swarms off hives stocked by packages, then probably so. Even if they are "domestic" stock, they would help prevent inbreeding. The OP was concerned that all their hives were descended from a single queen, so any colony not mated by the drones in their local area would help.

Stlnifr · October 30, 2010, 06:17:52 PM

Quote from: caticind on October 30, 2010, 10:28:57 AM
If they are really ferals, and not from swarms off hives stocked by packages.

How can one make the determination on whether they are Feral bees or from hives stocked by packaged bees?

Kathyp · October 30, 2010, 06:58:07 PM

you really can't by looking at them although in my area the ferals tend to be a bit smaller and darker. in my area we have a lot of farms and they bring in a lot of bees. most of my swarms come off those hives. i only know i'm getting truly feral bees when i can get them from a tree hive or out of a building, and then only if someone can verify that the mother hive has been there a while.

Stlnifr · October 30, 2010, 07:30:21 PM

OK is it save to assume that the bees in the three bee trees that I know of are feral bees. They have been in these trees 3 years or more and one that has been there for almost seven. They have been bees in this tree ever year we have looked at them for the past several years. Whether they are the same bees we will never know but bees have been in this tree that long.

VolunteerK9 · October 30, 2010, 07:51:33 PM

Even if they are originally from someone's packages that swarmed, my thinking would be that if they have survived in a tree on their on for 3 years, that they definitely could be labeled survivors. That's the kind of bees I am striving for, feral or not.

troutstalker2 · October 31, 2010, 09:37:18 AM

Quote from: caticind on October 30, 2010, 10:28:57 AM
If they are really ferals, and not from swarms off hives stocked by packages, then probably so. Even if they are "domestic" stock, they would help prevent inbreeding. The OP was concerned that all their hives were descended from a single queen, so any colony not mated by the drones in their local area would help.

Its funny you say that, I caught a swarm this spring and the queen had a funny blue dot on its back.

mudlakee · October 31, 2010, 11:42:56 AM

I WAS WONDERING WHERE THAT NUC WENT. Tony

Joelel · October 31, 2010, 02:57:40 PM

Feral means wild bees or not kept by man. All swarms from your hives become feral or wild. You don't know what's out there. You can raise good queens from one queen but you don't know what they will mate with. They can get different genetics from different drones.

David McLeod · October 31, 2010, 09:57:35 PM

Maybe I'm wrong thinking this but maybe let a few swarms of your good stock get loose in your area might be a means of keeping good genes in the area, if nothing else it would be an ironclad test of just how good your stock really is.

AllenF · October 31, 2010, 11:14:16 PM

It could be a front line against AHB. But it could be a breeding ground for SHB and possibly mites as well as competition for nectar from your hives. People just don't like seeing a new hive fly away. But I do see the benefits of good drone saturation in your area.

David McLeod · October 31, 2010, 11:25:50 PM

You know if it weren't for the mites and SHB we could be a leg up on the AHB. It seems that everything the AHB does is just the opposite and can out survive our EHBs in the face of these pests.

AllenF · October 31, 2010, 11:41:07 PM

Ya, when the pest get too bad for the hive, an AHB hive will just move off to a new home leaving the trouble behind.

David McLeod · October 31, 2010, 11:43:05 PM

Sounds like some of my in laws. LOL

AllenF · October 31, 2010, 11:43:56 PM

:lau:

tecumseh · November 01, 2010, 09:40:21 AM

troutstalker ask..
My question is with just one other hive that is not descended from the original queen in the yard will inbreeding be a problem.

tecumseh:
this would depend on what you think is in the surrounding area. if the two hives were the only hives for miles about then I would guess inbreeding might be a problem. the process of inbreeding is however not all down side since it is a well used method of concentrating genetic traits in honeybees. many old breeding lines started by first pursuing inbreeding.

David McLeod · November 02, 2010, 09:08:08 AM

tecumseh, it's linebreeding if it works and inbreeding if it don't. ;) Line breeding is a useful tool to concentrate good genes (related pairs share the same genes) but it can also expose any latent or recessive (non expressed) ugly genes. All line breeding programs must eventually outcross to unrelated stock as it is a guarantee that the bad stuff all things carry way back in the genetic pool will rise to the surface just as a result of concentrating the genes over time (generations). I believe the starlines and midnites got around this by maintaining two seperate but similar genetic lines and crossing these every so many generations.

L Daxon · November 02, 2010, 10:56:25 AM

This won't work too well for you guys living in the country, but I live in the city:

Last time I called in an order to one of the bee supply houses and they asked me for my zip code, I asked them if they have any other clients from my same zip code and they said, "Yes, three." So now I know there are at least 3 other beekeeps fairly close to me. And that was from just one supplier.

I also have access to a computer mapping program that let me put in my address and then lets me draw a radius any distance I want from my home. I put in a 3 mile radius and I was surprised to see how far away the girls could be flying or other bees could be coming in from. It was a lot farther than I had thought cause they can do "bee lines" and not have to follow streets. :-D And the 3 mile radius from me actually went into a couple other zip codes. So who knows how many other beekeeps are around me and how diverse the bee population is locally.