Winter Cluster Position

Hemlock · December 02, 2010, 12:45:08 PM

My hives face South. They receive the most amount of direct sunlight in the afternoon come Winter (southwest side), Yet, the cluster tends to be on the East side of the hive. I would think it's warmer for them to be on the Western side. Do they not cluster based on available heat?

T Beek · December 02, 2010, 12:47:30 PM

They make their own heat.

thomas

Hemlock · December 02, 2010, 01:07:01 PM

REALLY!? If your going to be insulting I'd rather you didn't respond.

I've never meet a beek that didn't know that. The question relates to why the bees choose the cooler side of the hive vs. the warmer side of the hive. They expend a great amount of energy keeping the cluster warm. Clustering towards the Sun provided warmth may, i think, help them more that Away from the warmth. But that does not seem to be the case here. I was wondering about the significance of it. Does it mean I'm doing some thing wrong.

T Beek · December 02, 2010, 01:46:48 PM

:?)jeez...wasn't trying to be insulting, just trying to answer a question. Years of extensive temp testing inside colonies prove it makes little dif to the bees where the cluster is located nor that they have a particular preference, over any one side. All of my lang colonies have clusters "currently" on the North/West sides. We had zero degrees for our low last night. My only colony with its cluster toward s/e (and the entrance) is in a home-made "long" hive, which also remains my happiest.

So much for assumptions, heh?

Finski · December 02, 2010, 02:04:20 PM

.
Bees cannot move the cluster according sun movement

according my experience the cluster starts there where the last brood were.
That is why I move all broodframes down in 2 box hive.

If the cluster is small, it takes another side. Not the centre.

Cluster starts wintering near the entrance and it moves backwards during winter..

If i put a heather inside the hive, they cluster around the heat source.

In my country sun does not heat hives any more. Clusters use to be in centre near the entrance.

Hemlock · December 02, 2010, 02:11:32 PM

Quote from: T Beek on December 02, 2010, 01:46:48 PM
Years of extensive temp testing inside colonies prove it makes little dif to the bees where the cluster is located nor that they have a particular preference, over any one side. All of my lang colonies have clusters "currently" on the North/West sides. We had zero degrees for our low last night. My only colony with its cluster toward s/e (and the entrance) is in a home-made "long" hive, which also remains my happiest.

Thank you, that's helpful. Do you find that the same colonies cluster in the same location year after year? I say that because i see that in mine.
'Long Hive', is that a TBH or something else?
-
Sorry about the knee jerk reaction.
It sounded like you going to tell me next that the funny white boxes filled with bugs in my backyard are Beehives and that they make Honey & that the sky is Blue... :evil:

bud1 · December 02, 2010, 02:30:28 PM

just sounds like you done got a chip on yo shoulder

T Beek · December 02, 2010, 02:43:00 PM

As a lifelong "ludite", dragged into the 21st century kicking and screaming, I've found that Jumping to conclusions seems to be one of the primary flaws of these forums. Its one of the reasons I so seldom come around. There was never any intentional slam meant on my part, although there's plenty of examples around here and other forums. Your relaxed (and rare 8-)) response was/is apreciated.

My "long hive" is simply a box designed to fit 36 medium frames, kinda like a tbh but w/ frames. The bees really do seem more content when working them, compared w/ the langs. Honey is harvested like a tbh. I originally built it to be a tbh, but changed my mind after reading Michael Bush's site. And Its so easy to work I'm going to build a few more this winter.

thomas

rdy-b · December 02, 2010, 04:56:19 PM

Quote from: Finski on December 02, 2010, 02:04:20 PM
.
Bees cannot move the cluster according sun movement

according my experience the cluster starts there where the last brood were.
That is why I move all brood-frames down in 2 box hive.

If the cluster is small, it takes another side. Not the centre.

Cluster starts wintering near the entrance and it moves backwards during winter..

If i put a heather inside the hive, they cluster around the heat source.

In my country sun does not heat hives any more. Clusters use to be in centre near the entrance.

happens all the time with SMALL colonies -they gravitate toward the sun warmed side of the box
and all of a sudden a cold snap comes through for a few days and bees hunker down and make there own heat- but it is to cold to break cluster- and if the food reserves are on the other side of the hive out of reach- they will starve
-every year there are posts about this -and we stress the importance of having reserves above the bees so they can get to it ;) -RDY-B

Hemlock · December 02, 2010, 05:45:56 PM

Finski,
Populations are good. One has always been strong. The other is a combination between 2 strong colonies; one lost its queen in Fall. I'll check the inspection records to see if they are indeed clustering where the last brood where. I think they are though. Our Winters aren't nearly as bad as yours. Sunny days above 50f degrees happen several times a month.

bud1,

Quote from: bud1 on December 02, 2010, 02:30:28 PM
just sounds like you done got a chip on yo shoulder

Oh brother and is it a big one. I'm always getting mistaken for Atlas... :-D

T Beek,
I've wanted to do more than just Langs. I'll look into the Long hive too, Thanks

rdy-b,
They have a full 10 frames of honey & pollen in each box. Back filling went well this year for them. But I've not seen them move much before. They like to stay in the same spot. So it looks like they're well enough off to solely rely on their own ability to create heat. Sounds good so far. Thanks

Michael Bush · December 02, 2010, 08:35:46 PM

They move throughout the winter based on food location, but warmth is a factor I'm sure as well.

rgy · December 03, 2010, 09:29:20 AM

stupid question!! but how do you know where the cluster is without opening the hive up and I thought that would be a realy bad idea when it is COLD?

Tommyt · December 03, 2010, 10:50:26 AM

Quote from: rgy on December 03, 2010, 09:29:20 AM
stupid question!! but how do you know where the cluster is without opening the hive up and I thought that would be a realy bad idea when it is COLD?

X-Ray :-D

T Beek · December 03, 2010, 11:39:12 AM

I use a stethoscope, works great for locating cluster w/ no interference and you can get a general sense on how they're doing by what they sound like. Its a widely available tool no northerner beek should be w/out.

thomas

David McLeod · December 03, 2010, 01:37:09 PM

Quote from: T Beek on December 03, 2010, 11:39:12 AM
I use a stethoscope, works great for locating cluster w/ no interference and you can get a general sense on how they're doing by what they sound like. Its a widely available tool no northerner beek should be w/out.

thomas

An infrared thermometer would work as well, though it would not be able to listen.

Hemlock · December 03, 2010, 04:29:57 PM

Quote from: rgy on December 03, 2010, 09:29:20 AM
stupid question!!

What's a 'Stupid Question'?

Quote from: rgy on December 03, 2010, 09:29:20 AMbut how do you know where the cluster is without opening the hive up and I thought that would be a really bad idea when it is COLD?

The whole world doesn't live in a Michigan freezer. We typically have the occasional 50 & 60 degree day here throughout Winter when the bees fly. We can go into the hives and check supplies and population levels. We even get to see when the queen starts laying again if the weathers right.

rgy · December 03, 2010, 04:37:52 PM

Posted by: Hemlock
Insert Quote
REALLY!? If your going to be insulting I'd rather you didn't respond.

Hemlock · December 03, 2010, 04:52:22 PM

rgy,

T Beek & I handled that way up top. What's your Point?

T Beek · December 03, 2010, 04:54:15 PM

a point about these forums proven again. later........

thomas

Finski · December 03, 2010, 04:56:42 PM

Quote from: rgy on December 03, 2010, 09:29:20 AM
stupid question!! but how do you know where the cluster is without opening the hive up and I thought that would be a realy bad idea when it is COLD?

When I trickle them with oxalic acid I look where they are. Yes, I take the inner cover off.
But during winter, I do not touch hives at all except when trickling. Reason is that I know that they are OK.