is Crimson Clover a good nector source

John Adams · February 03, 2011, 05:43:56 PM

I have a farmer close by that planted 100 acres of crimson clover. I called a fellow beek to tell him about it and tell him that hecould put as many hives on it as he wanted to, and he said that some varieties of crimson clover don't produce much honey and some do. Have any of you guys ever run into this before?

iddee · February 03, 2011, 06:12:27 PM

I'm not a farmer nor botanist, but here's what I've been told.

There is a red clover and a crimson clover. One can be worked by the honeybee, but the other is too deep for them to reach. It will be worked by the bumble bees, as they have a longer tongue.

Which is which, I can't remember. I'm sure someone will come along with a better answer.

T Beek · February 03, 2011, 06:33:00 PM

Some say its a myth that honeybees won't hit on crimson clover, or even red clover, and it was either here or another forum where that was proven with pictures of bees all over it. That said, I'm also sure you'll hear from others with their own experiences :) as Iddee said. I'm betting that if its all there is they/some will feed off it, those honeybee tongues are longer than we might expect.

thomas

BjornBee · February 03, 2011, 06:48:35 PM

I'm no clover farmer, but would this be anything like alfalfa? Where farmers cut it right before bloom so the nutrients are not lost to the bloom? Do they actually let the clover bloom for a period to benefit the bees?

And is this a farm type crop that will be sprayed with some type broad leaf herbicides to keep weeds down thus potentially harming the bees?

Just something to consider. I don't have the knowledge myself so I'm just throwing this out for discussion.

BlueBee · February 03, 2011, 07:02:38 PM

I've got red clover right behind my hives. My bees don't work it.

As iddee says, the bees tongues' aren't usually long enough to get the nectar. I've read that if the clover is cut, the 2nd generation of clover heads are not as deep and the bees can sometimes get the nectar out. Still I have seen little activity (unfortunately).

I have no idea what Crimson clover is; I'm not a botanist either.

AllenF · February 03, 2011, 07:06:43 PM

Most crimson clover is grown as green manure where it is plowed under and the raise the nitrogen in soil. (good for turkey and seer also)

I have heard that bees can not tap red clover. Here is a study that bees hit the Crimson clover. http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/esa/jee/1958/00000051/00000004/art00038 But that could be just a pollen thing. But I have also heard that bees make honey from it. I think there was an article in ABJ several years ago about it and the honey from it. I think white clover is a better clover for the bees.

Countryboy · February 03, 2011, 11:55:44 PM

The red clover flower head is too large for honeybees to get all the nectar. Bees will work it though if they don't have anything better to work. Some blossoms are smaller than others, and bees can work those. Also, the tiny blossoms of the head closest to the stem are shorter than the blossom parts in the main part of the head. Bees can work the blossom parts nearest the stem.

Are they growing the clover for seed production, for hay, or for green manure? If they are growing it for hay or green manure, they won't allow it to blossom. If they are growing it for seed production, then they will want your bees for pollination, and they will let it stay in full bloom.

bee-nuts · February 04, 2011, 06:05:54 AM

I just did a quick search and it looks like its the same thing as red clover. Has an inch to inch and a half blossom so I dont see and chance of honeybees reaching the nectar. Unfortunately red clover is grown more often as a hay crop or cover crop than the whites. You will find a lot of white clover in dairy pasture which I was lucky enough to locate a few hives next to last season. Between the white clover and alfalfa blooms, I had a flow like no other I have seen so far. Great honey too.

Kaisa · February 04, 2011, 10:52:31 AM

I don't know where hopelessly lost is on the map but crimson clover supposedly yields from 50-100 kg honey per hectare in Europe.

Boom Buzz · February 04, 2011, 01:47:46 PM

I am looking for a cover crop/ground cover that is a bee-neficial nectar source. I was focused on clover until reading this thread. Not sure about the accuracy or credibility of the wiki site below but it does show red and crimson clovers as "major" nectar sources for bees. If any one has any experience to share on the various clover types as a nectar source I would appreciate very much hearing it. BTW, my main nectar source was alfalfa that was not cut early. It went to flower and the bees worked it heavily in the fall. It provided my first honey crop! :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_nectar_sources_for_honey_bees

I am thinking about Red, Crimson, White, or Alsike clover but not sure which to plant.

John

John Adams · February 04, 2011, 02:03:12 PM

The clover I spoke of will be combined for the seed, so it will be allowed to pollinate. I guess one way to find out is put hives on it and see if they work it or not.

bee-nuts · February 04, 2011, 03:07:07 PM

Red clover usually has a corolla tube that is to long for a honeybees tongue to be able to reach the nectar. Bumble bees have longer tongues and that is why you see them work it but usually not honeybees. I myself have lots of red clover but never see honeybees on it but always bumble bees. Literature will tell you that if it is a dry season and the red clover is stunted it will have a shorter corolla tube and then honeybees will be seen working it. Honeybee strains with longer tongues are reported to be able to reach the nectar like the Caucasian honeybee. White and yellow clovers are great honey plants for honeybees.

Go to google books and search american honey plants and you will find a great read on honey plants called "American Honey Plants".

John Adams · February 04, 2011, 03:47:08 PM

thanks bee-nuts i'll get one coming this way.

Boom Buzz · February 04, 2011, 05:51:18 PM

Wow! bee-nuts, great resource! Found the info I need in the American Honey Plants link below through google books. What a great resource! Turns out I have a small amount of the Alsike clover growing on my plot, thus I know it will do well here, and the reports on this clover are very good, so that is what I will go with. The book also confirmed your points on red clover nectar not being as accessible to bees due to the length of the corolla tube. Again great resource and a BIG thanks!
John

http://books.google.com/books?id=JpllAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=American+Honey+Plants&source=bl&ots=t4xfmkUV3K&sig=HIliXKb9kgQ-4J2HMInkXagZLnI&hl=en&ei=_lRMTbGGO8m_gQeDp5kY&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=alsike&f=false

Jacobs · February 04, 2011, 07:06:51 PM

I don't know how good a nectar source crimson clover is, but I know my bees were all over it last spring. A neighbor and fellow beekeeper gave me some seed to plant as green manure in one of my back yard garden patches about 6 feet from my hives. I scattered the seed in late summer/early fall and it sprouted and stayed about an inch high and green all winter. In early spring it reached about a foot and a half high with inch to inch and a half blooms. When they got crimson in color, the bees were all over them. By the first week in May, the blooms had played out and began drying out. By the time the soil was warm enough here for warm weather plants (mid May last year), it was time to till the clover under and begin planting. I collected the seed and am repeating the process this year.

Crimson clover bloom does not last long, unlike the white clover I am trying to get to grow in my lawn. I assume the bees wouldn't be so enthusiastic about it if they couldn't get something beneficial from it.

asprince · February 04, 2011, 07:14:12 PM

I put my hives on crimson clover every spring. They love it. The honey is very light.

Steve

bailey · February 04, 2011, 09:46:44 PM

i have bees starve around it here.
but they love the white clover!
bailey

Countryboy · February 04, 2011, 11:28:47 PM

Buckwheat makes a good ground cover or green manure. An acre of blooming buckwheat can produce 10 pounds of honey PER DAY.

bee-nuts · February 05, 2011, 03:18:07 AM

Ya all are welcome. Study the trees and stuff that grow in your area a bit and look them up in this book. You might be surprised how many good trees, bushes, weeds, and whatnot that grow in your area provide a good nectar or pollen source. A few I have are box elder, maple, willow, basswood, mild weed, black berries, golden rod, and they go on and on. Not all produce every year but it is fun for me to be aware of the source then know when it will be in bloom and see if the bees work it. Some that are suposed to be great sources of nectar they dont touch so you have to wonder what is so good out there that they dont bother working it.

Have fun.

Rosalind · February 05, 2011, 10:30:53 AM

Quote from: Countryboy on February 04, 2011, 11:28:47 PM
Buckwheat makes a good ground cover or green manure. An acre of blooming buckwheat can produce 10 pounds of honey PER DAY.

Really? I am glad to hear it. I got some buckwheat to plant around my orchard, as the Spouse is nervous about running the mower near the hives. Was thinking of mixing in a bunch of other stuff, as I really need two mixes in the orchard--one fairly shade-tolerant for under the trees and one more sunny. Already have borage seeded everywhere, some hellebores for early spring, Alpine strawberries, goldenrod, asters, a little milkweed. Thinking I will make a mix of more Alpine strawberries, thyme, white clover, hellebores for low-growing areas under the trees, and another mix of different Asclepias varieties, alfalfa, buckwheat to go around the edge of the orchard.