Foundationless frames in honey super

[rayb]

I have been placing foundationless frames in the brood nest for the last few years with good success. How do I add foundationless to the honey supers? Will they draw them out well? Any hints for best success?

Thanks,
Ray

[T Beek]

Check out Michael Bush's site.  Very good explanations and answers to most Q about foundationless.

thomas

[skflyfish]

I did a few frames of foundation-less (using a paint stick as the starter) in each super last year (placed between drawn foundationed frames) and I found that the queen would come up and lay drone brood in frames that were closer to the outside of the super and as high as 5 supers up.

Jay

[FRAMEshift]

I did a few frames of foundation-less (using a paint stick as the starter) in each super last year (placed between drawn foundationed frames) and I found that the queen would come up and lay drone brood in frames that were closer to the outside of the super and as high as 5 supers up.
Jay

The queen will lay drones in the first place she can.  If you used all foundation in the broodnest, she has no place to put drones except in the supers (or in burr comb).   If you don't want drones in the super, give her a foundationless frame on the outside of the broodnest, or better yet, use all foundationless.

[VolunteerK9]

I'm not sure that I will do all foundationless in a super again. If you have some drawn  and wanted some good cut comb, place a foundationless with a starter strip between the drawn. On supers, they tend to draw them out very thick and wavy and some were drawn close to the middles of the next frame. Not a problem if you are taking the whole box away to extract, but a messy problem if youre just taking a frame or two out to extract.

[Eshu]

When starting a super of foundationless frames, I swap a frame from the ouside of a brood box (all honey/pollen, no brood) with the middle of the undrawn super.  This helps them draw the comb straight.

You can swap it back if you want to after they start drawing other frames.

I have put on supers of undrawn frames without doing this.  Most of the time they do fine.  But sometimes they create a mess.  If I have time I swap frames...

[T Beek]

Agreed; all good advise above.  I guess the important thing to know is that a super filled only with 'empty' frames will definitely cause issues/problems because bees are inclined to do their own thing, if we don't manipulate them. 

Its always a good idea to put some drawn frames mixed in with the empty frames to get them started right. 

When I was getting started with foundationless I used regular foundation (its not a dishonor ;))before I had any drawn comb and have slowly gotten rid of it all.  Although I lost 3 colonies this winter (most ever for me), 'they' gave me honey, pollen and drawn comb for future bees.  Even in death, bees give us much.

thomas

[Michael Bush]

The main thing is you need a comb guide.

http://bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

[rayb]

Thank you for all of the answers. The help is always appreciated.

Ray

[Michael Bush]

If you put a box of foundationless with comb guides on top odds are good they will be in the frames.

If you put empty frames (with or without comb guides) between capped drawn comb they will dray them between the capped comb nicely.

If you put empty frames between uncapped combs of honey, they will draw the comb out thicker on the drawn combs and ignore the undrawn frame.

[Humanbeeing]

I've read a lot where people claim to have problems with foundationless frames. I never have problems with them. I cut thin strips of wood for guides that reveal 1/2". All foundationless frames or foundationless frames in between drawn comb, no problems. I do believe that the guide makes the difference. Cutting scrap wood for guides is a lot cheaper than foundation and with me being a cheap skate, I like it.

[VolunteerK9]

If you put a box of foundationless with comb guides on top odds are good they will be in the frames.

If you put empty frames (with or without comb guides) between capped drawn comb they will dray them between the capped comb nicely.

If you put empty frames between uncapped combs of honey, they will draw the comb out thicker on the drawn combs and ignore the undrawn frame.

Just remember that little piece of advise (I didnt). The honey needs to be capped or else you will wind up with a nice, really thick capped frame that requires the removal of at least 2 frames at once to get it out.

[Michael Bush]

In case you don't listen to VolounteeK9's advice and you alternate drawn with undrawn and get those fat combs and can't get them out, flip the box over and pull the box off of all the frames at once, and then you can separate them.

[T Beek]

In case you don't listen to VolounteeK9's advice and you alternate drawn with undrawn and get those fat combs and can't get them out, flip the box over and pull the box off of all the frames at once, and then you can separate them.

Good advise Michael, but for a novice, easier said than done, from my own experience anyway :-D Took me awhile to clean up ;)

thomas

[Stone]

Having kept a few top bar hives for the last two years, I'm not too surprised by the kinds of combs that the bees can build.  I'm going to all foundationless Langs this year and I ordered Walter Kelley's top bar starter frames for this purpose.  I'm very carefully listening to what everyone is saying here on the forum about going foundationless. Paying close attention.

I don't plan to do any extracting at all - just doing cut comb and chunk honey. 

On another topic, I picked up a box of insulation support rods that fit right though the holes in a frame very nicely - just snip the ends to fit.  I thought I'd use them for cut outs.  I haven't tried it yet but I'd imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to skewer the combs and set them onto the frames.  Did a cut out last year for the first time and used rubber bands and it took forever!