First Full Inspection 2011..Problem?

bassnbees · February 27, 2011, 02:35:46 PM

69 degrees here in the mountains of NC and I opened up my hive to check on food stores and reverse hive bodies. I combined a late queenless with my "good" hive last fall and fed them heavily. I was pretty low on reserves today, and more troublesome is the drone comb I found. There were five frames with clusters of brood and eggs on each one but the only capped cells were drones. Probably 20 or so on each frame, and right in the center of the frames not on the edges. I did not see evidence of laying worker (more than one egg in a cell), but suspect it may be a problem. I reversed the bodies (bottom deep was empty), put on a feeder, and closed them up. I saw only 15 or so drones out of a lot of bees (more than a package).
1-Is this normal?
2-If queenless and laying workers are present can I get a queen now and
3-how do I get laying workers to accept her?

Maybe I am just worrying but this was not what I expected to see...drone comb and no worker brood capped.

Finski · February 27, 2011, 02:49:03 PM

.
You have a good hive and you neednot worry about drones or worker layers.
Drone counting has no purpose.

BjornBee · February 27, 2011, 03:02:17 PM

I'll assume you know what your looking at, and know what drones are, etc.

As to your questions...

1) No it is not normal.

2) You can get a queen anytime you want to do it.

3) You don't. Laying worker colonies are faithful to the laying workers. There may be some success with long term "introduction" frames over several weeks time. But I find them useless and your hive is unproductive for such a long time, it is better to go with other corrective measures.

Do you have any other hives?

Is the pattern good? (You may have a queen who has no sperm left) But usually you see a shotgun scattered effect with both laying worker and bad queens.

Do you have another beekeeper close by to take a peek?

bassnbees · February 27, 2011, 03:19:38 PM

It is a solid pattern. Small custers of 6"x4" but not spotty there are larva in almost every cell within the brood patch on each frame. The only capped larva are drones. I got to see laying workers last year and it is not a shotgun pattern as you say. But the area on each frame is not very large.

bassnbees · February 27, 2011, 03:22:34 PM

and no other hives, I had started with two and had to do the aforementioned combination last fall.

Finski · February 27, 2011, 03:30:45 PM

.
Only capped brood are drones. That sounds not good. Soon you see them more do you get workers?

bassnbees · February 27, 2011, 05:06:20 PM

I plan on checking for capped worker brood in a week Finski. This is becoming disheartening. Year three, and third year with problems. I have two nucs coming in May, was hoping to split this one with a new queen and end up with four hives. I feel a bit cursed.

Hemlock · February 27, 2011, 09:55:10 PM

Just wanted to throw this out there.

You say you had a late queenless colony. OK
You say you combined it with the good colony. OK

Are you saying 'ALL' the capped brood is drone? If so... ('cause, If not, then never mind!)

Did you see many torn up emergency queen cells in the queenless hive before you combined it? If you did...
The queenless colony MAY have made a virgin queen (No drones left to mate with late season)

You May have placed her in the Good colony when you did the combination.

Now consider this.

What if something happened to the original Good queen? Who's left? A Virgin Queen who only lays drones...

Just sayin' but I don't know.

rdy-b · February 27, 2011, 10:11:00 PM

you say you saw no evidece of laying worker-only one egg per cell not multiple
can you tell me if the egs where on end or on there sides-if on end look for queen
if on side those are from laying worker-how many frames of bees are left in the hive
RDY-B

bassnbees · February 28, 2011, 09:32:17 AM

I'll also check for egg orientation, eggs laying on their sides. Thanks Rdy-b. There are a LOT of bees. Bees completely covering 7 frames, plus a couple hundred buzzing around when I reversed the hive bodies. I did see two SHB's but that is pretty common, they have never become a problem in strong hives, and no oozing honey.
With such a dense brood pattern, I am beginning to believe a Virgin Queen may be the strongest bet (Thanks Hemlock), or a very poorly mated queen who is out of sperm as mentioned earlier. There are areas of uncapped larva (5-6 days) where not a single cell is empty for several inches square. Weather will be 62 deg. and sunny on Wednesday and I'm gonna open them back up and REALLY hunt for a queen and hopefully at least a few of the cells will be capped workers. I'll try to get some pics to post.
If a queen is found, who has queens available now? I would prefer Italian, and folks in my area won't have any until mid April.
I wonder if I could even find a virgin queen in the hive, as her abdomen would be smaller than a mated queen...I think.

bassnbees · February 28, 2011, 09:58:56 AM

Also...If I do indeed have laying worker.
I have heard of taking the hive 100 yards away and shaking every last bee from every frame into the grass. Then replace hive at original location. Only the older foraging bees find their way home and the younger bees, Including the laying workers who have never left the hive and are unable to find their way back. Then you requeen the next day, by introducing with a standard queen cage.
1-Has anyone tried this and was it successful?
2-Without young nurse bees who will raise my new queens brood?

FRAMEshift · February 28, 2011, 12:53:00 PM

Quote from: rdy-b on February 27, 2011, 10:11:00 PM
can you tell me if the egs where on end or on there sides-if on end look for queen
if on side those are from laying worker-how many frames of bees are left in the hive
RDY-B

The queen will lay eggs in the bottom of the cell. They will be on end in the beginning but will lay over on their sides before they hatch into a larva. Laying workers lay eggs on the side of the cell but are still attached at the end of the egg.

my-smokepole · February 28, 2011, 05:41:51 PM

Yes but the few clumps of bees that hang around are killed. So that you for sure get reid of the working queen. The one time I saw this about 5o bees in total.
David

Michael Bush · February 28, 2011, 11:50:55 PM

>I have heard of taking the hive 100 yards away and shaking every last bee from every frame into the grass. Then replace hive at original location. Only the older foraging bees find their way home and the younger bees, Including the laying workers who have never left the hive and are unable to find their way back. Then you requeen the next day, by introducing with a standard queen cage.

It's a commonly believed myth.
http://bushfarms.com/beesfallacies.htm#shakingout

>1-Has anyone tried this

Many times.

> and was it successful?

No.

>2-Without young nurse bees who will raise my new queens brood?

Old bees can make fine nurse bees. It just takes some time for them to shift gears.
http://bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Old%20Bees%20Good%20Nurses

Laying worker info:
http://bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm

Kathyp · March 01, 2011, 12:17:55 AM

bassnbees any chance you can post a picture of your frames of brood? i have a thought, but we need to see what you are looking at.

rdy-b · March 01, 2011, 01:59:06 AM

Quote from: FRAME-shift on February 28, 2011, 12:53:00 PM
Quote from: rdy-b on February 27, 2011, 10:11:00 PM
can you tell me if the egs where on end or on there sides-if on end look for queen
if on side those are from laying worker-how many frames of bees are left in the hive
RDY-B
The queen will lay eggs in the bottom of the cell. They will be on end in the beginning but will lay over on their sides before they hatch into a larva. Laying workers lay eggs on the side of the cell but are still attached at the end of the egg.

sounds good FRAMEshift-I will redirect my thinking thusly- ;) RDY-B