Top Entrance success!

Terrex · May 11, 2011, 10:50:48 PM

SBB & Top Entrance works great. First couple of hours, I felt that I made a mistake. Bees kept going to the bottom trying to find a way in. By evening, they had it down. It has been 3 days and all is well...they are hanging out in the corn.

Thanks Iddee and MB

Teresa

Dange · May 11, 2011, 10:55:39 PM

I have heard some stuff about top entrances. Can you help me understand the benefits of this as well how you did it? Thanks

Shanevrr · May 11, 2011, 11:26:22 PM

an hole is a hole lol

Terrex · May 11, 2011, 11:30:20 PM

My reasons:
1. Florida is hot and humid..96.5 today. Instead of the bees sitting in a "hot" box they get some air. Less stress for them.
2. We have critters. They will stick their arms (Raccoon) in the bottom to grab anything, or skunks who scratch the bottom and wait to slurp up the bees that come to defend the bottom entrance.
3. The air flow help with the drying of honey so that it can be capped.
4. No condensation build-up in the box.

I just waited until mid-day (bees out foraging) and moved frame by frame into a new box with a SBB and top entrance lid.
There was confusion when the foragers came back to the hive and could not get in. They would go all over even under trying, but they finally figured it out...it was hard for me to watch. Now they just zoom in and out like usual.

Tommyt · May 12, 2011, 12:28:43 AM

I have a KTBH that is 2 foot so I was able too add a super on it
they drew and filled it so
I added another,looking more like a Lang now, If I open the
top a bit,I see how it would cool and move air, but what about robber bees

Congrats on yours

Tommyt

FRAMEshift · May 12, 2011, 07:33:40 AM

Quote from: Terrex on May 11, 2011, 11:30:20 PM
My reasons:
1. Florida is hot and humid..96.5 today. Instead of the bees sitting in a "hot" box they get some air. Less stress for them.

If the outdoor temperature is higher than the temp the bees want to maintain on the brood nest, more airflow is not necessarily a good thing. The bees will place water on the capped cells and fan it to lower the temperature. It's their form of air conditioning. More airflow than that will just heat the brood up.

Think of your air conditioned house in Florida. Why don't you open all your windows on a very hot day?

BjornBee · May 12, 2011, 08:18:28 AM

Beekeepers have been cracking the lid and adding shims (Upper and top entrances) for years. I even do this. Due to unnatural circumstances where we manage for mega-sized populations (Adding boxes, etc.) that never would be seen in feral colonies, and the poorly constructed hives we provide as housing, then yes, additional entrances can help with heat, moisture, etc.

But that is far different then the promotion and use of top entrances in cold weather after the supers are off and cold weather sets in. Understanding what bees desire, the dynamics of how they manage air flow, heat, and moisture, and even what they seek in searching for a new cavity, all indicate that top entrance hives can have negative consequences.

Yesterday I worked a hive that has a nice sized crack in the back of the hives between the 3rd and 4th boxes. This was being used as their primary entrance. By the time I was done working the hive due to removing their entrance and the bees becoming "lost" as they could not find their entrance, I had thousands of bees flying around. I could see how that could be unnerving to a few. It is not pleasant to work a hive like that.

I could see adding additional holes in supers, etc., for the summer season. After the honey season, the supers (and holes) are removed allowing the bees to utilize bottom entrances. But to eliminate bottom entrances all together and go through winter with top entrances, would go against everything I have learned that the bees have taught me. ;)

Michael Bush · May 12, 2011, 08:40:14 AM

>Can you help me understand the benefits of this as well how you did it?

1. I never have to worry about the bees not having access to the hive because the grass grew too tall. I also don't have to cut the grass in front of the hives. Less work for me.
2. I never have to worry about the bees not having access because of the snow being too deep (unless it gets over the tops of the hives). So I don't have to shovel snow after a snowstorm to open the entrances up.
3. I never have to worry about putting mouse guards on or mice getting into the hive.
4. I never have to worry about skunks or opossums eating the bees.
5. Combined with a SBB I have very good ventilation in the summer.
6. I can save money buying (or making) simple migratory style covers. Most of mine are just a piece of plywood with shingle shims for spacers. But some are wider notches in inner covers that I already had.
7. In the winter I don't have to worry about dead bees clogging the bottom entrance.
8. I can put the hive eight inches lower (because I don't have to worry about mice and skunks) and that makes it easier to put that top super on and get it off when it's full.
9. Lower hives blow over less in the wind.
10. This works nicely for long top bar hives when I put supers on because the bees have to go in the super to get in.
11. With some Styrofoam on the top, there's not much condensation with a top entrance in the winter.

http://bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#topentrance
http://bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm

Robo · May 12, 2011, 09:19:58 AM

Teresa,

I would wait until you do an inspection in the middle of the summer before you declare success. Nothing like standing in an ever increasing cloud of returning field bees frantically flying around looking for the entrance while you disassemble the hive. And then trying to reassemble the hive as bees boil out the top trying to exit through the now non-exiting entrance they are use to using.

BjornBee · May 12, 2011, 09:21:29 AM

Where to start......

Lets start with #9.

Wind....for the new beekeeper out there, if your worried about wind, and want to buy in to the rationale that upper entrances can allow you to keep your bees in windy locations, you will find especially in colder climates, that wind is a killer.

To even think that your hives are in a location where them tipping over in wind is a concern, misses one of the basic fundamental concepts of beekeeping. And to use the rationale that lowering them (8 inches) by using top entrances, and thinking your doing your bees a favor, is mind-boggling.

Personally, I favor getting them off the ground. For a host of reasons. One is the fact that I hate bending over all the way to the ground working hives. I favor hive stands, wind protection, and a more sensible approach to beekeeping.

To think a beekeeper has bees in the middle of a field, blasted by 40 mph winds with temps in the teens, and the message is that "Well, them hives would not blow over if you would use upper entrances, thus allowing you to lower the hives a foot" is questionable at best.

So beekeepers take hives off hive stands, keep them in windy locations, then rationalize that upper entrances are then justified due to critter concerns, is a backdoor approach of promoting something. :roll:

I'll let someone else pick the next item from the list. None of it makes sense to me. Like a mouse can't get in a top entrance. What a hoot! Saving money by not buying inner covers, then suggesting with this new top system, you would benefit from using (and I guess buying) Styrofoam.....

Michael Bush · May 12, 2011, 10:42:02 AM

>Like a mouse can't get in a top entrance.

What mice CAN do and what they DO are two entirely different things. I have never had a mouse get in a top entrance.

>One is the fact that I hate bending over all the way to the ground working hives.

Which is why I sit on my toolbox/stool.

>"Well, them hives would not blow over if you would use upper entrances, thus allowing you to lower the hives a foot" is questionable at best.

They all blew over the year before I went to the lower hives. They have not since even though the wind has blown down several full size trees and a lot of shingles. The other issue is putting supers on with a step ladder.

Shanevrr · May 12, 2011, 10:28:42 PM

Quote from: Robo on May 12, 2011, 09:19:58 AM
Teresa,

I would wait until you do an inspection in the middle of the summer before you declare success. Nothing like standing in an ever increasing cloud of returning field bees frantically flying around looking for the entrance while you disassemble the hive. And then trying to reassemble the hive as bees boil out the top trying to exit through the now non-exiting entrance they are use to using.

very good point

Michael Bush · May 12, 2011, 11:11:44 PM

>Nothing like standing in an ever increasing cloud of returning field bees frantically flying around looking for the entrance while you disassemble the hive.

But they will do this with a bottom entrance also. They come back and it's smaller and they get confused. They aren't angry, just confused.

Shanevrr · May 12, 2011, 11:25:18 PM

i stand behind my hives and Im not affected by bees at all nor affecting there entrance but some cannot do this. i have a feeling if I stood in front Id get stung in the A.. lol

Robo · May 12, 2011, 11:29:55 PM

Quote from: Michael Bush on May 12, 2011, 11:11:44 PM
>Nothing like standing in an ever increasing cloud of returning field bees frantically flying around looking for the entrance while you disassemble the hive.

But they will do this with a bottom entrance also. They come back and it's smaller and they get confused. They aren't angry, just confused.

Not even close in comparison. I can stand behind a hive and tear it all the way down to just one hive body and the vast majority of bees returning still head towards the bottom board entrance, likewise foragers leaving continue to depart from the bottom board. Yes there are a few bees flying around but no where near the amount with a top entrance only hive. In fact, by using a manipulation cloth, the activity calms down quite quickly, even if the height has been reduced by removing hive bodies.

When I did try top entrance only hives, within 5 minutes of digging into a inspection, I felt like I was in the middle of a swarm with every one of the returning foragers circling around me or landing on top of the hive body I was trying to manipulate. Then all the bees trying to exit coming up out of the hive.

You are correct, they are not angry just confused. But even for a seasoned beekeeper, it is quite intimidating/frustrating as it is next to impossible to manipulate or reassemble without squishing bees, and as time ticks, it gets worse, so you try to rush and end of squishing more.

Shanevrr · May 12, 2011, 11:36:27 PM

by using a manipulation cloth?

what is this?

Robo · May 13, 2011, 12:00:05 AM

Quote from: Shanevrr on May 12, 2011, 11:36:27 PM
by using a manipulation cloth?

what is this?

Just a piece of cloth you lay over the top of the open hive. Just roll the edge over to expose the frame you want to remove. Basically keeps most of the open hive body covered and the bees calmer.

I usually only use one when I know it will be opened for a prolonged period of time (grafting, etc)

Michael Bush · May 13, 2011, 12:32:18 AM

Because of how my hives are arranged (back to back and up against each other), I work them all from the front with no issues. I would work them from the back if I could and still get them clustered together on one stand. But it really doesn't matter that much.

Terrex · May 13, 2011, 12:49:37 AM

TommyT - I have not had a problem YET with robbers. This top entrance is a little different than what I have seen. The cover has a tapered "little" overhang over the opening to prevent wind blowing in rain, plus there is a small narrow attachable landing board right below the entrance/exit. Seems to help take offs and landings instead of crashing into the hive when the wind is blowing. This way as more supers are added it can be moved up. The opening is narrow and barely allows two bees on top of each other to pass and it goes across the whole super. I can close off part of it in the winter to restrict air flow or if "robbers" come , should the bees need help with defending the hive.

Robo, thank you for this second explanation: I could not wrap my head around what you were saying until this.

"When I did try top entrance only hives, within 5 minutes of digging into a inspection, I felt like I was in the middle of a swarm with every one of the returning foragers circling around me or landing on top of the hive body I was trying to manipulate. Then all the bees trying to exit coming up out of the hive. "

Explaination:
With a bottom entrance hive, you do your inspection. You start with the "top" super and work your way down, super by super and then move them off to the side. It would just seem (to me) that with a top entrance, you would start your inspection at the bottom super. The rest of the hive would be off to the side with the top entrance still attached. Bees could still come and go. Either way, you are going to have supers spread out until your inspection is over. As for the work? If your inspecting there is work and isn't that the reason for promoting 8 frame mediums?

I once read...I think that it was here, that you could ask 3 beekeepers a question and you would get 5 different answers. I thought that was funny...but it does seem to be true.

Yes, I am a new beekeeper and not an expert. And I know that there will be failures. But has no one on this forum had even one failure?

Robo · May 13, 2011, 08:24:28 AM

Quote from: Terrex on May 13, 2011, 12:49:37 AM

Explaination:
With a bottom entrance hive, you do your inspection. You start with the "top" super and work your way down, super by super and then move them off to the side. It would just seem (to me) that with a top entrance, you would start your inspection at the bottom super. The rest of the hive would be off to the side with the top entrance still attached. Bees could still come and go. Either way, you are going to have supers spread out until your inspection is over. As for the work? If your inspecting there is work and isn't that the reason for promoting 8 frame mediums?

Sounds good on paper, but I think you will find reality a little different. Moving a hive entrance as little as 1 foot will cause similar confusion to the bees as you saw moving it from the bottom to the top. Having supers spread all over the place is not an issue, having the entrance gone is. With bottom entrances, you can go right down to the very bottom hive body and the bees will still come and go pretty much as normal.
I don't even want to think about the added lifting involved in moving stacks of hive bodies to start from the bottom, even if it is 8-frame equipment.

I think you understand the challenge you will face, enough said. good luck