New hive feeding guage?

[John Pfaff]

To feed or not to feed, I know has been beaten half to death... but very hot and dry around here. I have new hives this year. I have had chicken waters with 1:1 out for several days with no bees. However, yesterday and today the remote feeders were full of bees. They took a gallon a day. Is this an accurate gauge of when to feed new hives?

Thanks for your opinion.

Later,

John.

[Vance G]

If they are taking it, then there is nothing better out there for them to eat.  How many colonies; yours, others and ferals do you figure your feeding that way though?  If I might suggest, put three quarts 1:1  in a well sealed gallon zip lock bag and lay it   on its side directly onthe top bars of the hive bodies.  There will be a air bubble on top.  carefully poke two one inch slits in the top of the bubble and the air will drain out and the bees will crawl up on the baggie and drink out of the slits and not one will drown.  Put a shallow super with no frames on under your cover to keep it away from the riff raff.  The only draw back to the baggie is that you can't take them off after you make the slits without spilling some.  have something flat to lay it on and you will only spill some moving it fast.    As far as feeding itself goes, if you are trying to get comb in brood chambers drawn and you are not feeding them to the point they get syrup bound, they are your bees and do what you think best.  Nothing replaces a good inspection to see what the state of things are.  If they have half their home full of stores and their comb all drawn, they obviously don't need fed anymore.  Cycle any undrawn frames one by one into the heart of the brood chamber.  I assume you will get a fall flow?  Do you want to harvest that or let the bees prepare for winter with it?  That should be part of your feeding decision too.  Hopefully you will get southern advice.  Wish you had a weeks worth of the rain we keep getting up here.  

[John Pfaff]

"How many colonies; yours, others and ferals do you figure your feeding that way though?"

Others, about 25 hives. Ferals, unknown.

"If I might suggest, put three quarts 1:1  in a well sealed gallon zip lock bag and lay it on its side directly onthe top bars of the hive bodies."

I fed inside the hive a week or so ago and started robbing that took three days to stop.

"Put a shallow super with no frames on under your cover to keep it away from the riff raff."

I had an empty deep over a hivetop feeder when the robbing started. All new equipment, no leaks.

"I assume you will get a fall flow?" 

Probably goldenrod, but not until late October.

"Do you want to harvest that or let the bees prepare for winter with it?"

I will leave the bees with whatever they can gather this fall.

"Hopefully you will get southern advice." 

My primary concern is the bees not starving to death now. They can go through remaining stores in less than a week. I guess I will feed again and chance the robbing starting again.

Later,

John.

[Brian D. Bray]

Overfeeding is the biggest and most common mistake made by beekeepers.  It is also one of the worst pieces of advice given.

Feeding should be done for short periods to address specific problems.  It shouldn't be done to boost forage for bees during lulls between honey flows, it shouldn't be done to force a hive to a certain point of development, and it shouldn't be done because the weather appears to be keeping the bees from foraging.  Feeding under all those circumstances can lead to a honey bound condition which is actually detrimental to the hive as it reduces the ability of the hive to populate itself.

Feeding should be done when starting a package, split, or swarm of bees to the point that all of the worker bees are standing on drawn combs instead of foundation.  It might need to be done to augment winter stores late in winter or early spring.  It also might need to be down in the fall if the honey crop was over harvested and there is not sufficient forage to top off the needed stores for over wintering.

That's feeding in a nutshell.

[John Pfaff]

One person says "FEED!"

Another says "Don't feed."

That's where I was when I asked the question. It's in the high 90's every day. There was a trace of rain on April 13 - nothing since. What are people under similar constraints doing now? I am not making idle conversation.

Thanks,

John.

[AliciaH]

I guess I might ask myself the following:
- Are they bringing in enough to sustain themselves (because if I start feeding, it might induce robbing)?
- Are they bringing in enough to cap any (because if they are, then they don't need me)
- If the first two are "no", and I suspect their numbers are dwindling, then I would feed.

Then I would keep an eye out for circumstances to change so I could pull the feeders and let them fill with the good stuff.

[John Pfaff]

 - Are they bringing in enough to sustain themselves (because if I start feeding, it might induce robbing)?

Some open nectar, but capped stores dwindling. No pollen entering hive for over three weeks now.

Then I would keep an eye out for circumstances to change so I could pull the feeders and let them fill with the good stuff.

Hasn't rained for three months. With this weather, goldenrod won't be alive in October.

[caticind]

The part we need to know to give advice is less about your weather/flow and more about your bees.  What is happening to the population.  How much brood they have.

So if you mention that there is no flow and no rain where you are, people who haven't read your recent threads are likely to say "Don't feed!", because feeding is not appropriate just because there is a dearth UNLESS your bees have no stores.

If you mention your stores are dwindling, people who haven't read your recent threads are likely to say "Feed with baggies!", because it's a convenient manner of feeding UNLESS you've just been robbed.

From what I've read in your recent threads, you had a 3-day robbing spree and are trying to bolster the victimized hive.  But if you still have capped stores in that hive, it doesn't sound like the robbing was as bad as it could have been.  A hive that has been thoroughly robbed out will have few if any intact cappings and can be sucked completely dry.  Although you lost a lot of bees in the fighting, it sounds like they defended successfully.

Open feeding is an excellent option to give some stores back where there are robbing hives.  You should also try not to open this hive for a while.  If they do have stores, then every time you crack the hive open the scent of booty is wafting out across the countryside.   :shock:

The last time you looked in this hive, they had some stores.  Were they also queenright?  If so, leave the hive closed for a while.  

Don't worry about pollen coming in at this juncture.  Since there's no flow, you don't want them to sustain peak brood rearing rates.  They will eat through their stores slower if they rear slower or even take a brood break.  This is a natural response to severe drought or dearth.  Besides which there is nothing you can do about low pollen anyway.  Pollen patty is not appropriate for a weakened hive in SHB territory.  

If you are certain they do not have enough stores to last a month, then open feed now.  It might save them...it also might leave them syrupbound like Brian said, or induce too much brood rearing that will have them starving yet again in the fall if there is no goldenrod flow.  

You can also choose to wait and see...they might starve, but they might make it if they have lost population in proportion to the lost stores.  Then you could see what they get from goldenrod and feed if needed. Since it doesn't get too cold where you are, you can even feed solid sugar on into the winter if you have to.

Either feeding or not feeding is reasonable.  Lots of folks on here can give advice, but they can't guarantee it will work.  Sometimes circumstances are just too bad for the bees to make it.

[John Pfaff]

"Either feeding or not feeding is reasonable.  Lots of folks on here can give advice, but they can't guarantee it will work.  Sometimes circumstances are just too bad for the bees to make it."

caticind,

This is a thoughtful response. Thank you. Brood has decreased, but am still queenright. Have four frames half full of brood surrounded by a band of capped honey and a little pollen. The hives lost several hundred bees over a three day period of robbing. I will leave the open feeders in place for a couple of weeks and see what happens.

Later,

John.

[caticind]

John,

Hope it helps.  Please let us know how it goes.

[Brian D. Bray]

"Either feeding or not feeding is reasonable.  Lots of folks on here can give advice, but they can't guarantee it will work.  Sometimes circumstances are just too bad for the bees to make it."

caticind,

This is a thoughtful response. Thank you. Brood has decreased, but am still queenright. Have four frames half full of brood surrounded by a band of capped honey and a little pollen. The hives lost several hundred bees over a three day period of robbing. I will leave the open feeders in place for a couple of weeks and see what happens.

Later,

John.

If they start filling the loose cluster space the remaining bees occupy with stores to the point that the hive has more than about an inch of pollen and honey across the tops of the frames with the queen using the remaining space for egg laying I would recommend moving some of the storage frames to the outside of the cluster to give the queen more egg laying area.

When I talk about loose cluster space I'm talking about what you see when you open the hive on a warm day.  The number of frames occupied by the bees on a warm day is the loose cluster space.