some questions on swarm behavior and trap follow-up

[windfall]

This thread is a follow up to the story of my first swarm "wife watched them swarm"

The short version is we had a cluster in a high tree for 2 days. yesterday I put an old 10 deep with some LGO and empty foundationless frames about 15' from the cluster in the top of another tree...an hour or 2 later the cluster was gone, but no activity visible at either this box up high or the borrowed pheromone trap (cardboar nuc) about 60' away. I assumed they had moved on.

This AM I look up and see about a dozen bees circling the high box and going in and out. I thought it was just bees from the other hives on the property checking out the new object/smell, but the activity seems to be continuing and building as the day warms so I am hopeful that maybe I got the cluster to move in. If so it has brought out some questions regarding how clustered swarms behave and what to do next. Normally I would spend some time researching and reading old threads where I am sure these questions have been asked and answered before, but I just don't have the time this weekend and so I hope some of you can shed light....sorry to ask folks to repeat themselves.

1) when a cluster does move does it mean they have found a home somewhere or do they sometimes just shift thier location to a new location and begin searching again?

2) If they have moved in to this box how long should I just leave them be before I bring it down....the box is pretty level but not perfect so if they start making comb it could get messy fast....I can deal with that if I have to.

3) I assume a swarm (with a virgin queen,I pulled the old one before they left) would be greatly helped by feed or a comb of stores? They were out on the limb 2.5 days in some rainy cold weather. I don't have much except an internal division frame feeder (robbing risk I am told) or I could steal a comb from my strongest hive but it would most likely be a mix of brood and stores. Last time i was in there were no pure honey frames yet (it's only 16 frames). And I get a bit nervous shaking brushing off a comb for fear of damaging the queen in my one strong solid hive...but I could do it with care and observation I am sure.

4) If they are in the box, when I move it down (in the evening) should I then locate it far away...couple of miles...for a week or so to avoid loosing confusing them by a short location shift. Or can I just bring them down and place them among the others?

[ncsteeler]

1) IDK, purely guessing here. I would think they have some time table for finding a new hive and when they exhausted an area they would move on to a new location and begin searching again. I'm sure someone here knows the answer.

2) at least leave it you think the queen is mated and back, if you move it now you take the chance the queen is out mating and will not find the hive when she gets back.

3) I always feed a swarm to help them draw some comb out even during a flow. I would especially want to do this with them hanging in a tree for so long. I use entrance feeders with reducers and don't have much trouble with robbing. If you are in a real bad dearth you may want to avoid feeding or open feed some where else in your yard. Although I had a swarm take up residence in an old hive with some comb already drawn, I didn't feed and they are one of my strongest now.

4)You could move it a short distance add a reducer and lay a leafy branch over the entrance to force them to re orient the next morning. If you have a location and it's not too much trouble haul them off for a week or two.

[Brian D. Bray]

This thread is a follow up to the story of my first swarm "wife watched them swarm"

The short version is we had a cluster in a high tree for 2 days. yesterday I put an old 10 deep with some LGO and empty foundationless frames about 15' from the cluster in the top of another tree...an hour or 2 later the cluster was gone, but no activity visible at either this box up high or the borrowed pheromone trap (cardboar nuc) about 60' away. I assumed they had moved on.

This AM I look up and see about a dozen bees circling the high box and going in and out. I thought it was just bees from the other hives on the property checking out the new object/smell, but the activity seems to be continuing and building as the day warms so I am hopeful that maybe I got the cluster to move in. If so it has brought out some questions regarding how clustered swarms behave and what to do next. Normally I would spend some time researching and reading old threads where I am sure these questions have been asked and answered before, but I just don't have the time this weekend and so I hope some of you can shed light....sorry to ask folks to repeat themselves.

1) when a cluster does move does it mean they have found a home somewhere or do they sometimes just shift thier location to a new location and begin searching again?

When a hive swarms it will do one of 2 things, it will either land nearby to gather the swarm or it will take flight and a predetermined directions towards a previously chosen sight.  If it lands nearby the apiary it might be there for just a few hours or a few days.  A swarm that takes flight afield will alight to rest and regroup, again this might be for a few hours or a few days.

A swarm will remain at a given location for a few days while it makes a decission between possible home sights or when there is no preselected sight.  If hived while at rest, the swarm has 2 choices, accept the home offered or opt for the one selected by the bees.  Swarms abscond when the bees opt for their selection.

Swarms can a do often swarm far beyond their normal forage area.  When they opt for that action they will fly from one rest spot to another, sending out search bees to prospect of acceptable home sights, if none is found they move on.  It is possible for a swarm to take a week of more to reach a final home sight.  But sometimes the rest sights become developed to the point that it becomes a more desirable sight than what they can find or to the point to which they no longer wish to abandon what they've developed.  Especially if the queen has begun laying eggs in the combs they built to hold their food supplies.

Another reason a swarm might remain at a rest sight for several days is in the case of a virgin queen, and allowing her sufficient time to mate.  Thuis is more apt to be true if the swarm crosses or nears a drone congrigation sight during its flight.

2) If they have moved in to this box how long should I just leave them be before I bring it down....the box is pretty level but not perfect so if they start making comb it could get messy fast....I can deal with that if I have to.

If the bees remain in the box for more than three days they have probably decided to make it their home over any other option they might have.  Also after 3 days, the chances of the queen beginning to lay eggs, provided she's not a virgin queen, which helps anchor the swarm to the hive.

3) I assume a swarm (with a virgin queen,I pulled the old one before they left) would be greatly helped by feed or a comb of stores? They were out on the limb 2.5 days in some rainy cold weather. I don't have much except an internal division frame feeder (robbing risk I am told) or I could steal a comb from my strongest hive but it would most likely be a mix of brood and stores. Last time i was in there were no pure honey frames yet (it's only 16 frames). And I get a bit nervous shaking brushing off a comb for fear of damaging the queen in my one strong solid hive...but I could do it with care and observation I am sure.

A partially drawn frame is often more than enough to cause the bees to remain in the swarm trap.  Taking a partially drawn frame that contains some pollen and nectar is even better.  Of course the best option, if available, is to provide the swarm with a frame containing eggs or brood.  The amount it not important it can be a full frame or a partial frame, mixed brood and stores, the important part is providing the swarm with a stimulus for remaining in the swarm trap/bait hive.

4) If they are in the box, when I move it down (in the evening) should I then locate it far away...couple of miles...for a week or so to avoid loosing confusing them by a short location shift. Or can I just bring them down and place them among the others?

You can take it back to it's originating apiary.  One thing that helps to reorientate from the bait hive/swarm trap location is to use a robber screen, this helps in the moving but also constricts the entrance path in such a way that the bees will reorient because of the change in the condition of the entrance.  The condition of the entrance is the primary consideration of the bees when leaving and returning to the hive, any prominate change will cause them to reorientate.

[windfall]

Thanks for the replies.
Brian your answers are always quite thorough and direct. It really helps me further my understanding.
Ncsteeler your comments reinforced what I had read. I was not too worried about the queen moving it a night.I could see where a daytime move could be a disaster.

I climbed up popped in a screen and lowered the box the following evening after dark. I was concerned that any comb they built would get all smashed up as that happened if it got to any size (foundationless no wire). put it with another hive about 40 yards away from the tree. and piled branches in front.

The next day in the early afternoon. I was able to steal a 1/4 frame of drawn comb with nectar from the strongest hive. I just didn't feel comfortable going in deeper for a frame with brood. The hive was packed....rainy day on and off...and the first few frames behind this partial were mostly drone...seemed like that would just be a burden to the swarm.

When I opened up the swarm they had already built a comb about half the size of my hand. Unfortunately they had attached it to the grain bag cover ,I had not enough frames on hand the day I put it up to completely fill it. So that broke off. I was able to prop it up in the bottom of an empty. And put the partial frame where it had been.
I had made a division board hoping to reduce the space by 1/3 to 1/2, but they were clinging to all the sides and I didn't want to disturb them more than necessary. In retrospect just tipping the box and giving it a sharp bounce probably would have been easy, but hind sight is the beginners curse!

IN the end I just filled the box with empty frames put a inner cover over it, a jar of syrup on that in an empty box, and closed them back up.
For the next few hours I did notice some bees buzzing the top of the maple where the box had been the day before but not that many.

They are still there (in the hive) today so I am hopeful. It has been a good learning experience if nothing else. When the box was open it didn't seem like that many bees left in it, but perhaps a bunch were out foraging? If they are still there in a few days I may try to steal a frame of emerging brood to give them a boost. But I was kind of thinking that a complete brood break (no Capped) might be a good thing in terms of v-mite load. I also wonder if I just shouldn't stay out of there until the queen has a chance to mate and start laying.