AHB and the future of new beeks....

Intheswamp · July 07, 2011, 11:57:48 AM

I'm just starting out, don't even have my bees on the property yet but I'm reading and researching as much as I can. I've read about AHB before, and figured eventually it would get to my area. For now it looks like Alabama, Mississippi, and the Florida panhandle are clear of AHB but from what I read...they're coming. For some reason the USDA's AHB map doesn't show Georgia but I'm aware of the death of the gentleman from Albany, GA late last year from an AHB attack. The USDA AHB map is at the bottom of this post.

I figure it could be years before AHB move into my area (south Alabama) but...it also could be tomorrow.

Rather than settling for simply keeping backyard hives should we be preparing to handle hot wild hives and swarms? A fellow with bee hives behind his house could possibly get put on the EMA's phone list...and neighbors phone lists, too. I know it's a good thing to be prepared, but with the coming invasion of this aggressive strain of bees...maybe we need to focus a bit more on our swarm capturing, cut-outs, and even extermination?

So, what should a new beek be preparing for? What area of bee husbandry should we be focusing on? Should we be opting to invest in full suits for full protection rather than simply going with jackets (what I'm planning on). Should clubs start having more classes on hot hive/swarm control?

Is there a way to be sure of breeding for new virgin queens? I know they can be artificially inseminated, but the drones used...how can we be sure of their lineage?

Will the beek with the small backyard still be able to keep bees there or will they have to be further away from people and dwellings?

The inspection that I took part in at the beek's beeyard that I'm getting my bees from was a real treat. The hive was a young hive and *very* tame. That is what I want and that is what I'm envisioning having. But, wanting and keeping that are two apparently very different things.

These are just some rambling questions that and thoughts that are on my mind, there are others too. It seems I'm getting into keeping bees at a time when in the somewhat foreseeable future that the beekeeping experience and methods will definitely be changed... The older beek that held the inspection with me had no protection on at all, he was gentle, he moved slow, very few bees alerted to us...but I imagine that when the Africans arrive that scene will be only memory.

Not being an alarmist or anything, but seriously wondering what I, as a new/rookie/gonnabe beek should really be gearing up and preparing for...

Best wishes,
Ed

ETA: Updated map to show Georgia AHB locations...

Intheswamp · July 08, 2011, 10:54:12 AM

I read where they found two more hives close to the one in Albany, GA. These apparently were found soon after the bee death incident. But just now I found an article from the Georgia Department of Agriculture dated June 11, 2011 stating that test results from a colony found in Bainbridge, Georgia in May of 2011 confirmed them to be AHB. This is a distance of roughly 55 miles apart between the two locations.

Bainbridge, Georgia AHB

Maybe I need to start looking at a full suit rather than a jacket, eh? :-\

FWIW,
Ed

Scadsobees · July 08, 2011, 11:55:19 AM

I think it is more something to be aware of and less to be afraid of. When I first started out, everything was new to me and I was concerned about every threat - mites (varroa/tracheal), moths, SHB, AHB, nosema, AFB....

A few years later and we're still living with the mites and moths, I have SHB around, nosema happens, I've had a couple of unpleasant hives, and we're still keeping bees.

You can run into hot hives with or without AFB. Are they a concern? Yes, but the dire images from the hype and the movie "Attack of the Killer Bees" just haven't come to fruition.

If anybody would have trouble with them it would be our intrepid videographers and honeybee removal experts JP and schawee, as well as plenty of others in the south doing the same thing, and I haven't seen too much trouble on their videos.

There will be changes if and when that day comes, but there's not much in the short term that can be done about it other than what is being done. I'd say the best thing for the southerners to do if it happens is to buy our northern queens :-D

Changes will happen, but not the way we plan them to.

CapnChkn · July 08, 2011, 02:24:14 PM

The problem here is media hype. AHB are highly defensive bees. Key word here is DEFENSIVE. They act just like any other bee until you get close to their nest.

They're just neurotic. The bees that colonized this hemisphere in the colonial period were basically defensive bees. I cant tell you from personal experience, I'm not old enough. However I've been around bees for most of my life and I've never experienced defensiveness that put me in real danger.

In Brazil, where this mess started just before I was born, they have managed the gentling of the feral populations again. I have a theory bees selectively gentle themselves, how good could it be for the hive to have a bunch of nutcases?

rbinhood · July 08, 2011, 03:40:43 PM

I am 72 years old and have been around bees since I was 7 or 8 years old. My Grandfather and Dad along with numerous uncles were all beekeepers. They would go out in the woods and find a stream or spring and dust bees and beeline to find bee gums. They would take a brace and bit and bore holes in above and below the opening in a tree and locate the extent of the hollow and cut it out and take it home and set it in a fence row till the fall of the year when they would cut the top off with a crosscut saw. At the time they would remove a portion of the comb always leaving enough for the bees to survive the winter. I can tell you some stories about mean bees that would make you never want to see another bee for the rest of your life! In 1954 I bought my first complet real bee hive from Sears and Roebuck for $4.99, this was a bottom board hive body 10 frames and a top cover. I put a swarm of feral bees in the hive and we are not talking about these woosie bees you have today that you can work naked as a jay bird and not worry about being stung but, these bees were some of the honerest, nasty, meanest, stinging machines you have ever seen. In 1960 I bought a 2 1/2 pound package of "Midnights" from Sears and Roebuck for $2.99 and that is when I really started to love beekeeping. The Midnights were like playing with a kitten compared to the devils spawn that I was accustomed too.

I wrote all of this just to say this.....today's bees are so much more gentle than the bees that my generation started with. But you can work with any of them you just have to know your limits and understand that with bees there is no limits, it is all about survival and defending themselves and their home.

David McLeod · July 08, 2011, 08:27:45 PM

Quote from: rbinhood on July 08, 2011, 03:40:43 PM
I am 72 years old and h :-Pave been around bees since I was 7 or 8 years old. My Grandfather and Dad along with numerous uncles were all beekeepers. They would go out in the woods and find a stream or spring and dust bees and beeline to find bee gums. They would take a brace and bit and bore holes in above and below the opening in a tree and locate the extent of the hollow and cut it out and take it home and set it in a fence row till the fall of the year when they would cut the top off with a crosscut saw. At the time they would remove a portion of the comb always leaving enough for the bees to survive the winter. I can tell you some stories about mean bees that would make you never want to see another bee for the rest of your life! In 1954 I bought my first complet real bee hive from Sears and Roebuck for $4.99, this was a bottom board hive body 10 frames and a top cover. I put a swarm of feral bees in the hive and we are not talking about these woosie bees you have today that you can work naked as a jay bird and not worry about being stung but, these bees were some of the honerest, nasty, meanest, stinging machines you have ever seen. In 1960 I bought a 2 1/2 pound package of "Midnights" from Sears and Roebuck for $2.99 and that is when I really started to love beekeeping. The Midnights were like playing with a kitten compared to the devils spawn that I was accustomed too.

I wrote all of this just to say this.....today's bees are so much more gentle than the bees that my generation started with. But you can work with any of them you just have to know your limits and understand that with bees there is no limits, it is all about survival and defending themselves and their home.

Rbinhood, you sound exactly like the my neighbor that got me started down this road nearly 30 years ago. Raymond Estis, God rest his soul, would have been about your age back then and loved bees in trees more than bees in boxes. I remember some of those nasty dutch bees that could and would nail your pockets shut. Since then we've flooded the south with Italians, Caucasians, Carniolion and all sort of gentle stocks that I rarely find a feral colony that is much more than warm at the worst. Heck, I do cut outs without a veil or gloves most of the time.
As for those concerned about AHB, don't be. They are here and have been for a long time, if some reports are to be believed. Just use common sense and treat any unknown colony with all due caution. The absolute best defense is us beeks keeping good gentle stock and dealing with the hot ones as we find them.

rbinhood · July 08, 2011, 10:58:37 PM

David, I still had rather have a hive of bees from a tree out in the mountain of the national forest than anyother, but with age comes the realization of your spent youth. I am still very active and try on occasion to still do a little beelining, for feral stock but it gets harder with each passing day, and the true feral bees are like me. When I say like me they are almost a thing of the past.....back in my younger days it was easy to find not just one tree but two or three in a days time with large amounts of bees in them. Here's that little word "but" that is a thing of the past just like beelining, most beekeepers today have not the faintest clue what it is much less how you do it. For this younger generation that is too much work, if they can't order a 3# package and have it delivered too their door by UPS they are not going to go too the trouble. In my younger days not only the bees were full of piss and vinegar but so was I....that all fades away with each passing day.....and sooner than latter you come to the eye opening moment in time when you realize that your are that "old man" who if you are lucky can remember who has the false teeth.....you or your wife.

Must say at times God blesses some of us with that wonderful little distracting thing called Alzheimer's just so he can have a good laugh watching us "old folks" act like an overgrown 2 year old. And if I am remembered for anything when I've passed on it will be "that old fart sure did love them thar bees. :brian:

And it has just kicked into high gear again.....anyway enjoy life and learn to appreciate one of God's greatest creations we can learn a lot from the humble little honey bee!

joebrown · July 09, 2011, 12:07:15 AM

I am that younger generation having just turned 26 years old. I have never beelined but I have a good idea how to do it, but where would I go to do it!?! I have listened to my father in law talk about bee lining. He use to do it with his "Old Man". I just wished I had an "Old Man" to do it with! I have said it before and I will say it again, beelining is a dieing art! I hear lots of people on here cutting down trees and so on, but I would love to have a stump full of bees in my yard. My father in law and his old man use to place supers on the stumps. I do not see a problem with that at all. Everyone is always looking for a new way to keep bees. However, no one ever wants to keep them the way they use to be kept. I know there are lots of problems and pests today, but sometimes I think beekeepers would be better off leaving those bees alone. Some areas with SHB may need more attention, but where I am from there is no sense in weekly hive inspections. I have a list of things I want to do in beekeeping. Beelining is one of them and I will do it sooner or later.

CapnChkn · July 09, 2011, 12:39:40 AM

Here's a book Joe. Blue Bee also has a lot of information about bee hunting.

Bee Finding

As for real "mans bees," I was doing my bee stuff in the 70's and early 80's and used to go out to my wild tree, sit there and enjoy them bees. I have a hive right now you might enjoy though. For weeks they attacked me from 75 feet away, until I moved them into the woods.

On the other hand, I split that hive, re-queened with a "smokeless" local queen, and those bees have been following me everywhere to set on me and lick my sweat. It's all I can do to keep from swatting at the tickle when I'm 150 yards from the hives. Would that make me a "Ladies man?"

FRAMEshift · July 09, 2011, 04:15:31 AM

Quote from: Intheswamp on July 07, 2011, 11:57:48 AM
For now it looks like Alabama, Mississippi, and the Florida panhandle are clear of AHB but from what I read...they're coming.

There is an effect of rainfall on AHB in temperate areas. Places that get more than 55 inches a year don't sustain AHB colonies. (55 inches of rain in the tropics does not bother AHB colonies). On that basis, the area of the Gulf Coast from New Orleans to Tallahassee should not get AHB. Here is the map made by NASA that tries to anticipate the extent of AHB habitat. Of course, global warming along with the changes in rainfall that come with it could change this. I know that area of the Gulf Coast has had a bad drought this spring, and if that became the norm, maybe there would be an AHB problem. You can click on the map and then on the magnifying glass to enlarge the map.

joebrown · July 09, 2011, 06:45:14 AM

What is the difference between tropical rain and normal rain? That makes no sense to me. Rain is rain! Why does the location matter?

b reeves · July 09, 2011, 09:12:28 AM

Most states don't monitor, Florida has traps set up across the state they harvest swarms and check for AHB, the trait that has a lot of people worried is the fact they are aggressively defensive, in managed hives this is a very easy thing to manage, any hive you don't like you re-queen, simple
Bob

FRAMEshift · July 09, 2011, 10:37:22 AM

Quote from: joebrown on July 09, 2011, 06:45:14 AM
What is the difference between tropical rain and normal rain? That makes no sense to me. Rain is rain! Why does the location matter?

It's the combination of how many warm days they get plus how much rain they get. In a very warm climate where they can swarm and forage year-round, the rain is not a problem. In a temperate climate like Alabama, they can't forage for months during the winter. If they also can't forage during part of the warmer months because of rain, they don't survive. I think AHB are more sensitive because they swarm so much. They are constantly having to build comb and then they abandon their hives and start over. That makes them very dependent on constant foraging.

Intheswamp · July 09, 2011, 12:22:04 PM

Quote from: FRAMEshift on July 09, 2011, 10:37:22 AM
Quote from: joebrown on July 09, 2011, 06:45:14 AM
What is the difference between tropical rain and normal rain? That makes no sense to me. Rain is rain! Why does the location matter?

It's the combination of how many warm days they get plus how much rain they get. In a very warm climate where they can swarm and forage year-round, the rain is not a problem. In a temperate climate like Alabama, they can't forage for months during the winter. If they also can't forage during part of the warmer months because of rain, they don't survive. I think AHB are more sensitive because they swarm so much. They are constantly having to build comb and then they abandon their hives and start over. That makes them very dependent on constant foraging.

I've got a question... The AHB swarms more often than the EHB. I thought that when a honeybee swarms that they leave part of the original hive behind, thus propagating the species. ????? I can understand the constant swarming being a drain on colony resources and creating a need for constant foraging, but if they swarm like EHB leaving part of the colony behind then they've lowered the original hive population and their smaller stores *might* feed the hive through times of dearth. Does that make sense?

To clarify things for me...do AHB and EHB swarm the same in regards to "splitting the hive"???? Absconding is a different matter... Again, just trying to get the info sorted in my green, rookie mind.

BTW, thanks for all the good feedback. Several of you experienced beeks have definitely lowered my anxiety level. My awareness has raised some, but the dread(?) seems to have gone away.

Thanks,
Ed

FRAMEshift · July 09, 2011, 12:29:50 PM

Intheswamp, I can't answer your questions about how AHB split their populations, but I do know that they swarm multiple times per year. So they get their population spread out into clumps that can't survive a tough winter.

David McLeod · July 09, 2011, 03:04:24 PM

My understanding is that AHB exhibit two types of swarming behavior. Reproductive swarming like all honeybees where the original colony splits itself and migratory swarming (what we call absconding in EHB). The latter is where the entire colony packs if off to better pastures. In AHB this is required in the wet/dry season cycles of subsaharan Africa. We call it absconding in EHB as it is not a natural trait of temperate bees and is more an act of desperation.