Freezing Brood?

Started by slacker361, July 08, 2011, 10:04:37 PM

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slacker361

July 08, 2011, 10:04:37 PM
Hey was just thinking the big thing about spring is getting the colonies built up for the flow..... what if you took several frames of brood from now, and froze them till next spring...... could you thaw the brood and have them survive.... ya know kinda like gold fish in a pond or frogs....as they freeze and do not die..... Ideas?

rbinhood

#1
July 08, 2011, 10:30:53 PM
Would you come back to life if someone froze you.......DON'T THINK SO!  An neither will the eggs or larva.
Only God can make these two things.....Blood and Honey!

hankdog1

#2
July 08, 2011, 10:47:09 PM
Here is why it doesn't work when frozen water produces sharp crystals.  Imagine if you will a tiny cell full of water now imagine a bunch of little crystals pearcing the cell wall from the freezing process.  The faster you can freeze the water the less cell damage but as of yet nobody has been able to freeze grandma or bee brood in the deep freeze out back and bring them back to life.  Please do not try and put grandma in the freezer just to prove me wrong.   :evil:
Take me to the land of milk and honey!!!

joebrown

#3
July 08, 2011, 10:50:27 PM
If that were the case, there would be no such thing as overwintering losses. It would be cheaper to buy a huge freezer and freeze all your hives than take your chances and buy new bees every spring! I think overwintering in a basement is a better idea if you want to experiment. It may have been on here where I saw someone modify a basement window. They had tube entrances to each hive that ran to the window. Evidently it worked!

BlueBee

#4
July 08, 2011, 11:41:41 PM
True, water expands when it freezes and can burst cell walls.  However LOTS of bugs overwinter in Michigan and we get well below 32F in the winter.  An example would be our native silk moths (Luna, Polyphemus, Cecropia). 

Like bees, the silk moths start out as eggs, hatch into worms, shed their skin 5 times and pupate before metamorphous into an adult moth.  The pupae of these giant silk moths pupate ABOVE ground in the winter so they are exposed to a full -20F during some winters here.

Evidently God decided to design some creatures to withstand the cold, and others that can't.  It a safe bet that bee pupae would NOT survive a winter in the freezer!  They wouldn't even survive near freezing for long (see threads on chilled brood).

Interesting idea, but I think it would be more fruitful to experiment along other lines.   

Where is FINSKI ?

iddee

#5
July 08, 2011, 11:51:59 PM
""Please do not try and put grandma in the freezer just to prove me wrong.   evil ""

No, use mother-in-law, instead, for the testing.  :evil: :evil: :evil:

I think your biggest problem would be that they would die before their temp got down to freezing. Nitrogen freezing may work, but even if it did, thawing would kill them under normal temps.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

slacker361

#6
July 09, 2011, 12:31:09 AM
No I know it wont work for us.... But for other animals it does , as the example of the gold fish in the pond.... So it does work for some animals and insects.....

slacker361

#7
July 09, 2011, 12:35:58 AM

CapnChkn

#8
July 09, 2011, 01:04:29 AM
Ok, Wood frogs and Pine trees, certain insects that have enzymes that work as an anti-freeze, but not fish.  If you ask any of the fishermen from up north, when you break the ice you might find a fish right there, glazed eyes, rolling over into the deep.

Fish can survive being frozen IN ice, but not frozen TO ice.  Once their bodies freeze, they're not coming back.
"Thinking is like sin, them that doesn't is scairt of it, and them that does gets to liking it so much they can't quit!"  -Josh Billings.

Larry Bees

#9
July 09, 2011, 08:49:27 AM
Amazing video! Didn't know that about wood frogs. Larry

Jim134

#10
July 09, 2011, 08:57:46 AM
Quote from: iddee on July 08, 2011, 11:51:59 PM
No, use mother-in-law, instead, for the testing.  :evil: :evil: :evil:


    :evil: LOL :evil:



   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

AllenF

#11
July 09, 2011, 09:41:59 AM
If frozen brood could be brought back to life, we would take dead outs and combine them in the spring to build up hives.  But we can't, just won't work.   But I do like the thinking here.   This question is what this forum is all about.

slacker361

#12
July 09, 2011, 09:51:08 AM
has anyone ever tried?

AllenF

#13
July 09, 2011, 09:54:13 AM
What about when you freeze drone brood to kill mites?  I think it has been done a lot.

Intheswamp

#14
July 09, 2011, 10:55:15 AM
Just to set the record straight, there is evidence that this should work!  Even on a grander scale than we are envisioning, though the resulting bees might need some remedial training...

Iceman movie

FWIW,
Ed
:-D
www.beeweather.com 
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slacker361

#15
July 09, 2011, 03:13:24 PM
Quote from: AllenF on July 09, 2011, 09:54:13 AM
What about when you freeze drone brood to kill mites?  I think it has been done a lot.

yes you freeze the drone brood to kill mites.... then do you scrape the apparent dead brood off, or just put them back in the hive.....????

AllenF

#16
July 09, 2011, 03:44:15 PM
Just put them back in.   The bees will open and clean out the dead, or you can open them if you want to help them out.

slacker361

#17
July 09, 2011, 03:47:14 PM
hmmmm. .... I need an experiment for a senior paper anyways......

slacker361

#18
July 09, 2011, 03:52:34 PM
found this ...it is a bunch of morons but the idea is there , they freeze a bee and tie a string to it, then the bee revives and they have a bee on a leash..... Moron might have been a strong term to use ...LOL
bee on a leash

AllenF

#19
July 10, 2011, 02:45:20 PM
Think about when you test for hygiene in bees.   You freeze a circle of brood with nitrogen and see how the bees clean up the dead brood.
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