Urgent – dump swarm on ‘hot’ hive?

watchdog2020 · July 10, 2011, 12:02:32 AM

7 days ago we inspected our hives and one was very angry about it. We found capped brood in both boxes, with a good pattern on the top, and spotty in the bottom. There were also a very low number of larva, and most looked about ready to be capped. Over the last several days the hive has been defensive and confrontational if you go with in 5 feet of it. I planned on opening in the morning and if I didn't find any eggs, open larva or queen cells, placing a frame of larva / eggs from another hive in it. Tonight we captured a small swarm most likely from one of our other hives. Instead of putting the new frame in, could I 'dump' the swarm on top or put a sheet of newspaper between them and try it that way. Bottom line, need to do something with the 'hot' hive and the small swarm tomorrow - Need advice desperately as this is only our second season, and admittedly we're winging it at times still.

joebrown · July 10, 2011, 12:16:31 AM

That would work if you have the queen in the swarm, but remember that the swarm likely has an old queen that will need to be replaced as well.

Boom Buzz · July 10, 2011, 12:31:22 AM

Watchdog, first off welcome to Beemasters. Can you change your profile to show your location?

I am hoping someone with more experience and knowledge will chime in, but since you are looking for an urgent answer I will answer as best as I can. I would think you would really want to make sure your hive is queenless first, so inspecting tomorrow to see if there are eggs or you can find a queen would be good. If you are pretty certain the hive is queenless then doing a newspaper combine with the swarm would be good. I would even be tempted to put a frame of eggs/brood from your other hive in just to see if it will calm the bees down a little and help them accept the swarm and new queen as they chew through the paper over the next few days.

If your hive is not queenless then you could consider snuffing out the queen and then after 3 or four days do the newspaper combine, after the hot hive realizes it is queenless. The hot hive could be hot for a variety of reasons, like pests giving it problems or maybe even just protective of its stores.

Is there a honey flow on right now in your area? If not, and stores are low the hot hive queen may have stopped laying to preserve the hive. If this hive is queen right and the bees have usually been fairly mellow, then something may be making them temporarily hot like like no nectar, no stores, skunk or other pest problem, etc., and they could turn back to mellow as the cause abates.

Just my thoughts on it...good luck!

John

watchdog2020 · July 10, 2011, 12:38:22 AM

one thing I forgot to mention is that the hot hive is from a new nuc this year, about a month and a half ago. The other nucs are doing fine.

JP · July 10, 2011, 01:18:06 AM

Definitely need to examine the hot hive again for a queen. As mentioned you wouldn't want to simply throw two queenright hives together, you could but then you run the risk of a good queen being eliminated, could be the one from the swarm.

...JP

AllenF · July 10, 2011, 09:15:04 AM

Check for eggs real good first.

skatesailor · July 10, 2011, 03:56:20 PM

From my point of view there is always time later to combine hives. Personally I would check the hot hive for a queen and if she is found, snuff her and requeen. You can do this by using a frame from another hive or ordering one.
I always like to see how a swarm performs before I intervene. You said a small swarm. I recently had a small swarm that is going like gangbusters now. I hived them and gave them a frame of eggs from a great hive. This is my standard practice. They did a supersedure and have given me a great hive.
I am in the process of doing the same now with a small swarm I recently caught in a trap. If they don't work out as well I will combine them later.

annette · July 10, 2011, 04:14:17 PM

I just had a similar situation last month, although none were hot. Just a swarm someone gave me and I needed to combine with another hive asap due to no equipment.

I placed the swarm into a small nuc for a few days, while I spent time searching for that queen in the other hive that I wanted to get rid of. I found the queen, pinched her and was able to do a combine the next day.

You have a different problem in that you are not sure the hot hive is queenless. Can you temporarily place the swarm hive into a nuc for a few days, and then give that hot hive a frame of eggs to see if they make queen cells. This is another indicator the hive may be queenless. Also as others have said, you need to check really carefully for eggs as well. If I did not find eggs for sure, and they made a queen cell, I would feel pretty good about doing the combine with the swarm hive. Nothing is certain, but I would feel fine about doing a combine under those circumstances.

Scadsobees · July 11, 2011, 10:24:10 AM

I agree with the others...it is probably too late now though ...

I'd get that swarm going in any box first, even if it is a super. A week or two, till you see eggs there.

Then double check that hot hive for a queen. Sometimes queenlessness can cause aggression. If there is a queen there, pinch her. Check for eggs and brood first, as well as queen cells, open or not. Then a newspaper combine.

I think just throwing the swarm in a box above with newspaper below would cause problems and fighting.

watchdog2020 · July 11, 2011, 10:43:09 AM

I ended up talking with a long time beekeeper who graciously agreed to come to my house today to inspect the aggressive colony. The small swarm I hived up and worse case, I'll combine them with another hive later. Thanks for everyone's responses, very much appreciated. :-D

yockey5 · July 11, 2011, 01:23:32 PM

gonna let us know what comes of this?

kedgel · July 13, 2011, 12:28:18 AM

Just a parting shot here... In my experience queenless hives get very docile. I've been plagued over the years with hives going queenless. Never had one go "hot" on me. Just my 2 cents worth...

Kelly