Its no wonder why wintergreen oil works in beehive

[latebee]

Was just looking through a website to order essential oils and discovered this tidbit.

WINTERGREEN(GAULTHERIA PROCUMBENS) This essential oil is approximately 99% salicylate,which is the MAIN ingredient in aspirin.

They go on to explain about using caution in regards to this oil and further state that most aromatherapists shy away from wintergreen oils because of possible interaction with other meds thier clients may be taking. OK -so if there are any pharmacists out there,do you think aspirin in the grease patties or sugar solution would have the same effect on tracheal mites that the wintergreen has? Or is it the strong odor itself which reduces the mites?

[drobbins]

I'm no pharmacist but my underatnading is it's the odor that helps
a lot of stuff going on in the hive has to do with pheremones and apparently essential oils help disturb the mites by masking smells. Some folks say this is also part of why SBB work, just better ventilation. I'm a newbie so I have no experience but that's what I've read

Dave

[Phoenix]

Please let me help to correct this mis-information...The use of essential oils is not to mask any pheremones in the hive, if that were the case the colony would have no loyalty to the queen, since her pheremone is what causes this loyalty.

Nor do you want a strong odor from use of essential oils, as you will notice in some cases the use of too much essential oil will actually drive the bees out of the hive.

The essential oils used in grease patties and syrups do act as fumigants, as the vapors are necessary to kill trachael mites, but the oils also act as contact killers and poisons to mites when they ingest the hemolymph of the bee and larval food.

[drobbins]

hmm, I was reading around trying to find where I had read that and found this

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/varroa2.htm

I stand corrected
I'm still curious to find where I got that idea

Dave

[drobbins]

if you look here

http://rnoel.50megs.com/letter9.html

about half way down the page, under "Proposed mechanisms of action:"
point 2
they talk about  "masking the normal chemosensory receptors on the tarsi and mouthparts of varroa mites"
I took this to be that the smell was masking pheremones
maybe I'm reading something into it that's not there
It's also some pretty old research (1996)

They make somw interesting points about methods of application (top feeder vs entrance feeder)

Dave

[Phoenix]

At least your reading instead of just passing on heresay.  I won't hold that against you. :lol:

Thank you for adding those links.

[latebee]

Dave,
        Thank you so much for your response and the link,found the info very,very detailed and clear. I would conclude  from the facts gathered,that the salicylate is not a major ingredient in mite control. It is obviously the scent disruption from the oils that make this treatment effective. Even though my original post addressed tracheal mites I am pleased to hear that the EO's also reduce varroa populations as well.

[latebee]

In case you are wondering where I excerpted the info on wintergreen essential oil, and its main ingredient it is //www.camdengrey.com

[Phoenix]

It is obviously the scent disruption from the oils that make this treatment effective.

What makes this obvious?  

There is a diffirence between scent and fumes or vapor.

Please tell me what it is about the scent that makes this treatment so effective.  If it were scent alone, wouldn't any scent be disruptive?

[drobbins]

Phoenix,

that research I quoted is quite old, and ideas may well have changed
their first  "Proposed mechanisms of action:"  is in fact "Direct Toxicity"
but the second one

"masking the normal chemosensory receptors on the tarsi and mouthparts of varroa mites"

appears to me to refer to a disruption of the olfactory system
is this not how you read it?

let me backup and describe what I thought was going on, please correct me if I'm wrong (which is likely)
I thought that when it was time for the worker bees to cap a larvae in a cell it was a pheremone that told the worker to do this. I was under the impression that it was also this pheremone that told the mite to lay it's eggs in the cell. isn't it correct that this timing of the mite entering the cell and laying is quite critical? I thought that had something to do with the success of small/natural size cells (changing this timing). anyway, I thought one mechanism of essential oils helping with the problem was disrupting this chemical signal for the mites. it is possible for it to cause a problem for the mites and not for the bee's. I was also under the impression that some folks think this may be a mechanism by which SBB's work by simple providing better ventilation and making the pheremone weaker.

Now, that being said, I can't tell you exactly where I got these ideas
I'm a rookie at this and I've read and tried to digest a BUNCH of material
I don't think I made it up but I may have read stuff that isn't correct (surfing the web causes that ya know) and I may have read things into it that weren't even there.

I wanna go find where I got that idea about SBB and better ventilation
I'm sure I read that and I may have stretched that idea into think it was related to essential oils. I'll dig around.

ANYHOO!
it's a lively discussion
thanks for your thougths and knowledge on the subject
I've learned a lot from various replies you've posted to lots of questions people have posted here.
you and others are a wonderful resource for us beeginners, we'd be in deep poo without you

Dave

[drobbins]

ps:

Phoenix said

There is a diffirence between scent and fumes or vapor.

that absolutely correct
it could be the fumes or vapors of the oils physically damaging the mites sensory organs, as opposed to disrupting the scent.
but there I go making assumptions again
you know what they say happens when you assume
(answer not suitable for family audience)  :shock:

Dave

[Phoenix]

There have been many studies done, and many claims have been made by these studies.  Once upon a time the world was thought to be flat, then came "proof" that it was round, but did everyone believe that?

There was a particular study done after the one you make reference to, that determined the varroa were not attracted by signals released by the larva, but rather, the larval food played a significant role in the process of cell invasion.

There are many factors that lead to the process of cell invasion by varroa, the least important factors are those that can not be changed.  Of which larval signal (either pheremonal or hormonal) and brood food are two of which can't be changed.

If pheremones are masked in the hive by essential oils, it would throw off the whole symbiotic relationship of the colony.  The whole colony communicates in many ways, either through hormones or pheremones, mask one and you mask them all.

The least disruptive method of varroa reproduction would be the most benificial to the colonies well being, and pheremonal interruption would be very disruptive.

I can't find any reference to cell capping being triggered by pheremone.  Can you help me out with that?  But again, I believe this falls under my explanation above.

One very significant factor in the reproduction of varroa that we can change, without disruption of the colonies ability to properly function,  is the cell size.  And I believe that plays the most significant role in the interruption of the mites reproductive cycle.  According to some, the cell diameter and cell depth both play a role in the process of cell invasion.  The shorter periods of pre-capping and post-capping allow less female mites to enter the cell and less male and fertile female mites to exit, therefore greatly reducing the possibility of a population explosion.

Now to address the misunderstanding of the role the SBB plays in the fight against varroa.  The addition of the screened bottom board to the IPM program of a beek plays a dual role.  First it allows mites that are groomed off the bees to fall through the bottom to their demise.  The second very significant factor the SBB plays in this role is to allow for better ventilation, by which it lowers the relative humidity of the brood chamber which is also an environment detrimental to the varroa.  They preferr a higher level of humidity, for proper reproduction.

But again, the SBB will not be as effective at exhausting the heat and humidity without an exhaust at the top of the hive, in order to get proper convection out the "chimney".

I too appreciate a lively discussion like this, without one another's emotions getting the better of them.  I am very passionate in my study of bees and my beliefs, but I am also open to suggestion and very open minded.  Discussions like this make me search and read more information in order to gather more and make a better decision based on a wider range of information.

Thank you.

[Michael Bush]

Salicylate is not a chemical.  It is a FAMILY of chemicals.

Aprin is one salicylate.  Acetyl salicylate.
Wintergreen is another.  Methol salicylate.
Pepto bismol is another.  Bismuth salicylate.
Doans pills is another.  Magnesium salicylate.

There are some similarities in the way the human body responds to the various ones and some differences.  Hence the use of one for stomach upset (bismuth) , another for muscle aches (magnesium), another (wintergreen) used to be used for stomach aches (until it was discovered that the bismuth salicylate was more effective) and another for general aches and fever (asprin).

I don't think anyone knows for sure why essential oils work.  Perhaps the smells confuse the mites, perhaps they poison the mites.