Should I now weaken this nuc?

[boca]

I have 4 polystyrene nucs each of them having six half deep frames (=3 deep), going into the winter. There is a bee space at the four sides and on the bottom, no space on the top.
They were expanding the whole summer and I kept taking the bees out from them. The last time I took the bees was the end of July. Since then I left them to build up for winter.
I'm afraid they built up a bit too much. They are so full of bees that there is a continuous bearding on the entrance. One of them has a lot of bees outside even if the nights are getting chilly (9-10C 48-50F).
I feel sorry for the bees not having enough space for them inside.
Technically it is not easy to increase the space inside these nucs. The only way I see to help these bees is shaking a frame of them into another hive.

So the question is: Should I take some bees out or leave them to die out the older ones?

This picture is taken this evening in dark.

[gardeningfireman]

If they have removable bottoms, you could combine them and make them two boxes high. More bees and more food increase the chances of winter survival.

[BlueBee]

I guess you can't super these nucs in some fashion?

Would it be possible to add another room in front of the nuc for the overflow?  Maybe make a modular setup like the space station!  Maybe glue a new foam nuc right onto the existing one and punch some holes in the wall between?

I have a similar issue with some of my 5 frame foam nucs.  Some are getting too big.  The next time I build some more, I think I'll make them wider to begin with and then use foam baffles inside when starting with 1 or 2 frame splits.  The foam baffles will limit the space and add a lot more insulation for the colonies when they're small.  When they get bigger, they don't need as much insulation, so my plan would be to pull the foam baffles to give them more space.

Did you get all your queens mated?

[derekm]

Build or buy some foam hives and dummy them out so you can fit in all the bees...
A hive half filled with foam is a nuc. A hive quarter filled with foam is what I think you might need.. Paint the foam with epoxy resin of cover it in tank tape or  corotex , correx or something.
This is exactly what I have done.

[Kathyp]

when does your winter come and how much food do they have stored.  i'd be less worried about crowding than stores.  the crowding will resolve on it's own as the the weather gets cold.

PM finsky if he doesn't catch this.  he'll have a better answer for your area.

[boca]

I guess you can't super these nucs in some fashion?

Yes, I could but I don't have any empty "nuc super". If I use the other nucs it is little help, since they are full as well.

Would it be possible to add another room in front of the nuc for the overflow?  Maybe make a modular setup like the space station!  Maybe glue a new foam nuc right onto the existing one and punch some holes in the wall between?

A veranda is a standard part of the Dadant-Blatt hives used in Italy and France. I'll try to make a roof for the hanging bees, until I come up with a solution.

By the way, in the broodnest the frames are ~32 cm deep, similar to your extra deep frames. I believe it is more comfortable for the queen to have an uninterrupted nest.

I have a similar issue with some of my 5 frame foam nucs.  Some are getting too big.  The next time I build some more, I think I'll make them wider to begin with and then use foam baffles inside when starting with 1 or 2 frame splits.  The foam baffles will limit the space and add a lot more insulation for the colonies when they're small.  When they get bigger, they don't need as much insulation, so my plan would be to pull the foam baffles to give them more space.

I started these nucs with half frame emerging brood and half frame honey and a foam divider to close the space. When the queen started to lay, they decided that they need more space and quickly removed the foam divider. Completely and without traces (in a form of powdered PS below the entrance).

Did you get all your queens mated?

I have only one queen to be mated. I hope she made it; one day the temp touched 20C/68F. I will check it on Saturday, because it is already dark when I get home from work.

[boca]

when does your winter come and how much food do they have stored.  i'd be less worried about crowding than stores.  the crowding will resolve on it's own as the the weather gets cold.

PM finsky if he doesn't catch this.  he'll have a better answer for your area.

In September they still fly on sunny days, but it is often rainy. In October they cannot fly any more until mid March early April for cleansing flight. That's 6 months confined in the box.

I am now feeding them with 3:2 sugar syrup. They should take about 5Kg to fill 3 deep frames.
This is my nuc feeder
 

[boca]

Build or buy some foam hives and dummy them out so you can fit in all the bees...
A hive half filled with foam is a nuc. A hive quarter filled with foam is what I think you might need.. Paint the foam with epoxy resin of cover it in tank tape or  corotex , correx or something.
This is exactly what I have done.

That is the long term solution. My immediate concern is the bees outside in the cold. I cannot take them out for a day to paint their wall.
This was my first experiment with low density foam. I will never use it again. High density PS nucs are very high quality, durable and cheap.
This 6 frame deep nuc costs 23.5 EUR = 33$

[Finski]

.
1) You may use normal poly box with dummy board.
Make a dummy board from 3 cm insulating board.

2) split a normal polybox in two pieces with table saw.
Make a missing wall from 3 cm insulating board and paint the surfaces with latex.
Then glue  it with polyuretha glue +screws.

Use thicker insulating in inner cover to prevent condensation.

I may loan you a tablesaw.  or if you bye, a table saw cost is 100 euros.

[Finski]

.
3 frame medium nuc is too weak to over winter in Finland even if you use electrict heating.

A nuc will meet serious bee losses in winter because it works hard to keep the cluster warm

then spring build up is painfull.

It is better to join 2  three frame nucs or join the nuc to next door hive.

I have just now 15  three frame mating nucs. I join them and cast away extra queens.

However a too small nuc will "eate" bigger hives' build up because it needs several frames of bees that it will grow to the productive hive before yield season.

[boca]

Thank you all for the suggestions.

I know that wintering a small colony is a risky enterprise. But I'm stubborn, I'll try it. There is something attracting in this method. probably because it is challenging. If it was straightforward I would not bother.

Unfortunately I don't have any spare empty box around. So I have to arrange what I have.

My plan was to build up the nuc to as many bees as the box can contain. I thought from mid August the population is steadily decreasing. That was my mistake. It is not an exception that in the first half of September there is a secondary peak of the population. On page 118 of ABC and XYZ there is a diagram of this.

As a remedy I put a 5 cm wooden frame between the body and the bottom (an eke), assuming that the excess bees will hang in the bottom bars of the frames instead outside. They did so. But they built nice combs under the frames and filled them with syrup. I didn't expect that this late in the fall. It was capped in a few days. I did not want this because the eke would worsen the insulation in winter. So I cut out the burr combs. What a mess.

In the meantime the other nucs also became overcrowded. There I put the eke on the top of the inner cower (actually there was no inner cower, I made one of cardboard). That is fine.
Later when they start to cluster I'll remove this extra space.

[BlueBee]

It's been my experience that when the bees are really crowded they will build up, down, and sideways!  

How many bees do you think are in these nucs at this point?  1000?  5000?  I'm trying to get an image in my mind how big/small these things really are.

My deep frames have just a shade over 6000 cells.  My nucs are currently brooding up about 55% of that surface area.  That's 3300 new winter bees per deep frame per cycle.  That can fill a small box with bees pretty quickly.

Are your bees still brooding?

[derekm]

I was in exactly this situation a month ago i.e. 3brood  + 2 drawn . But I have been able to double the amount of brood in a month. They are now on 6 frames brood +3 drawn, and accelerating in growth. They started on their own foraging but are now on fondant and still foraging for pollen. They will find it until we have severe frosts as we have gorse nearby which flowers almost all year. The take up of fondant has is now in excess of  1 Kg per week. The hive seems not as full of bees  compared to the wooden hive at the same amount of brood.