3rd super for winter?

[diggity]

After a slow start with a new package of MN Hygenics this spring, they are rockin' and rollin' now!  I was planning on wintering in 2 deeps (I guess mostly because that's what's commonly done here in New England), but I just checked them today and there are an incredible number of bees in there!  This is now easily the most prosperous colony I have had in my 4 years of beekeeping.  Absolutely crawling with bees.  I don't see any queen cells, so I'm not worried about late season swarming, but I'm wondering if I should be putting on a 3rd super?  There's still a lot of brood in all stages of development.  Queen is pretty young (superceded in July).  A few weeks ago I observed they had very little honey stores, so I've been feeding and feeding and feeding from an open feeder on my porch.  When I looked today, I saw they had done a good job filling cells with it.  So between syrup and brood (and pollen of course), pretty much every single cell in the hive is full.  I've fed them about 25 lb of sugar so far.  Should I keep feeding?  Put on another super?  It's warm this week, but experience tells us it will get much cooler when October hits.  Thanks for the advice!

[Finski]

.
I have nursed bees 48 years. I have ha big hives and bigger hives. Even 7 or 8 langstroth boxes in summer.

When autumn comes, big hives have  1,5 box brood before they stop brooding that is a size what they need in winter. Every hive has been sqweezed into 2 box.

When flowers start to prepare theselves to winter, summer bees die very fast, in 3 weeks

[diggity]

Thank you for the reply Finski.  So you're saying don't add the 3rd super?  How about feeding?  Should I continue to feed?

[boca]

When flowers start to prepare theselves to winter, summer bees die very fast, in 3 weeks

I wander why do they die then. AKAIK forager bees work themselves to death. So they should have died during the main flow and not so late.
I understand that there is a continuous dieing of old bees, but if you have a tower of deep boxes which reduces to two boxes in a period when there is nothing to do except collecting some pollen, something must be going on.
Could it be a colony level decision to reduce the number of workers? The same way as they decide to put out the drones.

[AllenF]

Stop feeding.   Get them ready for winter.  Don't add the 3rd box.   It would be a waste of your time this late.  Let the bees get ready for winter.

[diggity]

OK, thanks for the replies everyone.  One thing I'm confused about though... when brood rearing inevitably shuts down later this fall, that will leave some cells empty, right?  I feel like I should have some syrup ready for when that happens, but I know that if I feed syrup too late in the fall, they won't have time to reduce the moisture content...

[Finski]

When flowers start to prepare theselves to winter, summer bees die very fast, in 3 weeks

I wander why do they die then. AKAIK forager bees work themselves to death. So they should have died during the main flow and not so late.
I understand that there is a continuous dieing of old bees, but if you have a tower of deep boxes which reduces to two boxes in a period when there is nothing to do except collecting some pollen, something must be going on.
Could it be a colony level decision to reduce the number of workers? The same way as they decide to put out the drones.


I think that foragers fly and and they do not get any food on their trips, they are not able to return  to the hive.

It takes some weeks that all summer bees have transformed to foragers and then they go out.
If bees do not get nectar nearby, they go longer and longer, several kilometres.

[boca]

That makes sense to me.
T. Seeley's research result is consistent with this theory [The wisdom of the hive p.95].

According the results of his experiment, individual foraging bees maximise the net energy efficiency of foraging.
maximise (G-C)/C where
G: Energy collected, C: energy spent.

A late fall forager bee has to make a decision whether to fly out in and collect some nectar - even if conditions are poor - or wait for better times.
Whatever this forager does, she will die in a few weeks. Therefore it is better try to collect some nectar than waiting for better times. Times will get worse not better in fall.

A single bee might be dumb, but the colony is wiser than we think.

[BlueBee]

Times will get worse not better in the fall

True, we know this since we've been living on this rock for a few years now.
But how does a bee know this  :-D

[boca]

I use the verb "to know" in the context of an individual bee to express a different thing than in the context of humans.
I just don't have a different word. Maybe we should create one which means behavioral responses determined by genes to a certain combination of stimuli. Reflex?

The bee know something = she has an algorithm burnt into her genom, which has been the most efficient strategy to survive during the last several millions of years. (e.g shortening days means winter is approaching)

The bee does not know something = she does not have the effective algorithm to deal with a situation (e.g. escape from an upside-down jar when the bottom is open)

[boca]

H Storch: At the Hive Entrance

The feeding has been prolonged through until Octo-
ber even though the necessary sugar was available in
August. To justify this, the pretext is often made that
when feeding is stopped before September, the colo-
nies waste their winter stores on feeding the brood.

Why does late feeding constitute an error? Because it
implies one has forgotten that the colony has already
prepared itself for overwintering. It has already got
rid of the majority of the old foragers. The bees that
remain must carry out this extra work and will lose
their full potential for spring development.
Consider the following: fifteen pounds of sugar in
solution of 3:2 (3 parts of sugar for 2 of water) gives
exactly ten liters of solution. This is equivalent to a
bucket full to the brim. Despite the lateness of the sea-
son, this enormous quantity must not only be absor-
bed and stored by the colony but be concentrated and
capped by the bees after they have added different
ferments to it. All this work is asked of them just
before the onset of winter and despite this, one hopes
for a good spring development of these colonies.
There are several other reasons why late feeding is
wrong, it can even provoke an outbreak of nosema.

[MTWIBadger]

Diggity
You asked whether to continue feeding or not in your original post.  That depends on if the hive has enough stores to get through the winter which varies on your location. The heavier the hive, the more stores it has. In Montana (where last winter last 5 months) I winter in 2 deeps and a honey super for a strong hive and 2 deep or less for a weak hive.  I feel my hives are ready for winter when I can't tilt them up with one hand on a bottom super hand hold.  If you can easily lift you hive, you'd better continue to feed.  I would not open feed here because I would be feedng all the yellow jackets also. You have a much better idea how much the bees are taking in by using an entrance/top/internal feeder.

[diggity]

OK thanks, I'm just wondering if the hive will lighten in the coming weeks.  It's pretty heavy now with syrup and brood, but as brood cells become empty and the bees start consuming syrup later this fall, wouldn't the total amount of stored syrup drop?  Would this be a problem?  I'm just a bit nervous because my hives starved out last year and I don't want that to happen again..    :-\

[L Daxon]

If you are worrying about them starving out, remember you can always add dry sugar on top of the inner cover (sprayed with a bit of water) or even on top newspaper on top of the frames or piled up on the bottom board (assuming it isn't screened) or you can do a candy board or fondant, etc.  There are other ways to provide backup reserves for the girls in case the honey/syrup stores are used up.

And if you are going to stick w/2 deeps, make sure the bulk if not all of your brood is in the bottom box and the stores are on top (with maybe one honey frame on each side of the bottom brood nest).  The cluster tends to move up during the winter and you don't want them moving up onto empty brood frames.   You want them moving up onto food frames.  Hives have died out with plenty of stores left but they were usually where the cluster couldn't get to them.

[Dimmsdale]

One other thing to bear in mind is that your winter bees will only cluster on open comb, not on comb that is full of capped stores.  For that reason it is good that when your brood hatches, you have some open comb instead of trying to cram it full of sugar syrup.  This is what I have read at least.  Take it for what is is worth and good luck with winter!

[Finski]

One other thing to bear in mind is that your winter bees will only cluster on open comb, not on comb that is full of capped stores.  For that reason it is good that when your brood hatches, you have some open comb instead of trying to cram it full of sugar syrup.  This is what I have read at least.  Take it for what is is worth and good luck with winter!

That is really far from thruth.

I use to shake a smáll colony to capped combs, which I take from bigger hives.
If weathers are cold, a small colony is not able to cap its stores.

Just now I have clystallized capped honey frames. Instead of feeding sugar I give them capped food storage.

If you have in Autumn AFB, shake the bees on capped clean combs and you will not see the disease in Spring.

[BlueBee]

Finski, are you saying we should feed until every cell is full of syrup?

[Finski]

Finski, are you saying we should feed until every cell is full of syrup?

NO, I am not saying

YOU, don't do as I say, use your own brains! - But dont invent wheels....