Increasing Feral Colonies in undeveloped areas

Started by uglyfrozenfish, October 24, 2011, 03:06:48 PM

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uglyfrozenfish

Ok, This is just a thought I had while working in my garden the other day.  I was wondering if it would be "unethical" to manage a hive so that it throws off multiple swarms per year.  Placing that colony in a wooded rural area where the swarm would most likely seek out a "natural" home, not a home in a building.  I was thinking with all the reports of feral colonies in decline why not try to repopulate them by having a hive swarm on purpose? 

Just a thought I had, I look foreward to hearing your thoughts.

FRAMEshift

You would be seeding non-feral genes into the habitat of true feral bees.  If anything, this would serve to dilute the existing feral gene pool and compete with existing feral hives for resources.  The German bee from the 1700s that "naturalized" in the US is our feral honey bee.  If you wanted to help the feral gene pool, you might acquire some of those small black bees and raise queens from them.  That would help re-establish the native bee.

Does anyone know of a commercial source for this small black feral bee?   
"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh

BlueBee

I believe Finski called those black German bees little devils....   

FRAMEshift

Quote from: BlueBee on October 24, 2011, 04:30:09 PM
I believe Finski called those black German bees little devils....   

Yes, but their OUR little devils.   :-D  Maybe they got nicer on this side of the Atlantic over the last 300 years.
"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh

affreux


VolunteerK9

Im pretty sure some queen breeders do this already-have hives to swarm multiple times of the year for drone saturation in their area. I dont see anything unethical about it.

Russells has the German AMM. I purchased one, but she unfortunately met her demise during my poor attempt at requeening a colony. I'll try again next year-just not during a dearth and place her in a 5 frame nuc instead of a full sized colony.

windfall

Unless you are destroying all your drone brood, it would seem you are "seeding non-feral genes" keeping bees anywhere feral bees are present. Given that they are an introduced species to begin with I don't see the harm.

BlueBee

Yes we might be altering our "feral" gene pool with cultivated drone genes from down south.   Seems like a prescription for future woes as the AHB makes more inroads in the south.

FRAMEshift

Quote from: windfall on October 24, 2011, 08:30:54 PM
Unless you are destroying all your drone brood, it would seem you are "seeding non-feral genes" keeping bees anywhere feral bees are present.

Yes, you're right.  Swarms would just expand the geographic extent of the newcomer bees and would have them sending out virgin queens and additional swarms (as well as drones) from their new hollow tree home.

QuoteGiven that they are an introduced species to begin with I don't see the harm.

I was not arguing that it would be unethical, as the OP asked.   It's a judgment call.  The little black bee has been adjusting to the American climate (in all it's sub-regions) for several hundred years.  That represents a lot of experience and adaptation.  We are in the process of starting over by importing so many Italian bee genes that are competing with that history.   Those little black bees represent information about what it takes to survive on your own as a bee colony in America.  To me, that is valuable information I would not like to see lost.

I'm just saying that I will not be encouraging swarms.  I'm not condemning someone who does.
"You never can tell with bees."  --  Winnie-the-Pooh

Michael Bush

I don't see it as a big deal one way or the other since, as already mentioned, you're affecting the feral population already with drones, but on the other hand, I can't see that you're doing any good diluting the genes of the bees that are surviving and doing so on purpose is not helping anything.
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My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Shanevrr

I would keep, split, manage and grow.  They have a better chance with management. if you dont want to grow, sell them after making a split

I know a beek that swears he has feral hives, liittle black bees.  There behavior is like AHB.  I going to visit soon,  he said bring a full suit and duct tape lol
www.Valleybeesupply.com
"A responsible beekeeper is a successful one"
Shane C.

windfall

I guess I just don't understand enough of the regional histories or bee genetics.

I had assumed that bees are being kept by beekeepers in significant numbers anywhere that feral hives are/were present; continuously since their introduction to the continent.

If that is true, and queens and drones fly as far as I have read to mate...well I just don't see what you would be "diluting".

When were the feral colonies ever developing a separate set of genetics? Certainly their is selection pressure on any unmanaged hive for regionally beneficial traits, but these hives are and have been coming from and in constant genetic exchange with the many many kept hives.

You don't normally get much differentiation without isolation.

D Semple

Quote from: FRAMEshift on October 24, 2011, 03:56:11 PM
Quoting FRAMEshift

The German bee from the 1700s that "naturalized" in the US is our feral honey bee.  If you wanted to help the feral gene pool, you might acquire some of those small black bees and raise queens from them.  That would help re-establish the native bee.



Different varieties of bees interbreed with one another and populations ebb and flow like coyotes and rabbits. The German black bee may have been the feral bees of the 17, 18 and early 1900's, but with the diseases and pests and the constant reseeding of other European varieties from beekeepers I don't believe that's true anymore. In my area (Kansas City) the ferals I see definitely have a lot of Italian and Carniolan blood mixed in them.

Don

deknow

...of course seeding swarms in urban areas might be good for one's bee removal business :)

deknow

JackM

Now, I am new, but I would think the genetic diversity in the wild would actually be a good thing,  Bring in the feral positives and the domesticated also.  You could get the bad from both, which I would assume would not survive or you could get some really good genetics going for your locality.  Some guy in my state found an area that has ferals that had become SMR type, and he is successful in the wettest part of this country.  He thinks they are from the old Sears and Roebuck lines,

Conversely you could end up with AHB or worse??????

Jack of all trades
Master of none.

uglyfrozenfish

Quote from: deknow on October 25, 2011, 12:22:07 AM
...of course seeding swarms in urban areas might be good for one's bee removal business :)

OK, Don't give JP or Schawee any ideas.  They may get so busy they'll have to franchise their buisness :lol:

I have posted here a number of times this summer about a colony I took over that had been left unmolested for 10+ years at my grandparents place.  So, since those bees seem to be survivor bees and well adapted to our climate I had thought that they would be a good candidate for letting them swarm.  Not to mention that for the years previous to my involvement they probably were doing just this.  Swarming in the spring numerous times.  In fact this spring I found a dead out in a nearby tree that most likely originated from this hive. 

I would agree that a concern would be to dilute or destroy or alter an existing feral gene pool.  But since the dawn of commercial and hobby beekeeping hasn't this already been taking place.  I think at best we could debate the harm/benifits of promoting "survivor" genes verses purebred genetics in the wild.  So if using survivor genetics from your local area, or finding a feral swarm and using those to "seed" swarms would that dilute or benefit a feral gene pool?

I don't know but your comments and thoughts are interesting and insightful. 
THanks
Lee

P.S.  This would be an interesting experiment if it were managable.  Biodome anyone??

BlevinsBees

There are thousands of new beekeepers every year unwittingly doing that now by not managing their hives.
President, San Francisco Beekeepers Association
habitatforhoneybees.com

VolunteerK9

Quote from: BlevinsBees on October 25, 2011, 03:36:16 PM
There are thousands of new beekeepers every year unwittingly doing that now by not managing their hives.

Yup, and every year a tractor trailer carrying millions crashes that send more and more managed bee's genes into the gene pool.

Tommyt

Quote from: BlevinsBees on October 25, 2011, 03:36:16 PM
There are thousands of new beekeepers every year unwittingly doing that now by not managing their hives.
I thought the same as you but by this article looks like we are just catching back up :?
http://science.slashdot.org/story/11/10/25/0417250/why-so-many-crashes-of-bee-carrying-trucks
Quote'The number of managed honey bee colonies [in the U.S.] has dropped from 5 million in the 1940s to only 2.5 million today,' says the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Unfortunately, some honey bee scientists suspect that the rise of migratory beekeeping may be contributing to the species' decline as transporting hives from farm to farm spreads pathogens to local bee populations."

Tommyt
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