Small swarm survivability in south Alabama November 11th?

[Intheswamp]

Research continuing... ;)

My mentor dropped by the shop last Friday and among other things mentioned that he had a small swarm show up in his yard. He says it is only about as big as his fist...thankfully he's not a little guy.  Well, the swarm hung on a small branch and went through one cold night (for us...~32F) and a light frost that morning. The next day he put the swarm in a medium super and began feeding them. The swarm is queenright.

Well, tonight he called me and said that he had a situation. The small colony was getting robbed unmercifully and he had shut the box down with screen. He said he's sure he trapped some robbers in with the colony and he thinks those robbers will join the colony with no problem (which I agree with). Hopefully the queen is ok. Anyhow, he went on to tell me that if he opens it back up the robbers will again quickly descend upon it again and he asked me if I wanted it. I was waiting till this spring to bring my two hives to my house from his house so the offer of this small fist of bees caught me by surprise. Of course I answered YES.

I know there's a better chance of this small colony not making it than there is of it making it through the winter. Right now we're hopefully going to be getting some rain for the next couple of days (good day to work a handful of bees, eh? ) with one night getting down into the mid-30's...but high temps are supposed to rise into the mid 70's with lows ~50F afterwards.

My mentor will give me good advice but I'm hoping to glean some from ya'll, too. Right now they are in a 10-frame medium super. We're going to move them to a 5-frame nuc tomorrow if all goes well. I'm thinking of putting in a couple of follower boards or maybe even some styrofoam blocks on either outside position to crowd them up a bit (and insulate them some)...that would leave 3 frames for them. I'm pretty sure he has them on drawn foundation.

I'm figuring on feeding them all they'll take...2:1 sugar syrup. Would feeding a supplement like Megabee help them any?

I know that in the big scheme of things a fistful of bees isn't much of anything....but, it's got me excited!

Any feedback on what to do to give this small swarm a chance to make it through the winter down here in south Alabama would be appreciated. If they make it they'll be the start of a colony for next year...if they don't make it I'm out some sugar but get some experience along the way.

Thanks!
Ed

[iddee]

To give them the best chance, and let you learn the most, I would recommend the Kelley Ob. hive.

https://kelleybees.com/Products/Detail/?id=3336333233343339&grouped=1

[BlueBee]

I always worry about a small colony plugging up the comb with syrup and leaving no room for the queen to lay.  Hence I would keep an eye on them and limit the feed so they don't completely backfill the brood area.  Queen needs a place to lay if you want more bees.   

Feed is good for building comb and raising brood at the right time of the year, but we're going into winter now.  Don't know what bees do in Alabama in the winter.  Do they just try to keep warm or do they keep brooding?

I've taken small colonies (2 frames of bees) through winter here in Michigan with electric heat.  So I would conclude they CAN make it if they don't get too cold.  I doubt you need electric heat in Alabama, but I like the foam baffle idea.

[Intheswamp]

To give them the best chance, and let you learn the most, I would recommend the Kelley Ob. hive.

https://kelleybees.com/Products/Detail/?id=3336333233343339&grouped=1

Now that is a nice idea, iddee.  I'll definitely keep that in mind...they got free shipping coming up, too. :)  ...of course, my bee-budget is shot for now.  :-\  

I'm not so sure how this is going to go.  I picked the bees up this morning.  It was a robbing massacre.  The robbers were piled up at the screen.  We swapped the frames from the 10-frame to the 5-frame nuc and it was a cloud of bees.  The only problem was that we *did not* find the queen, she was there the afternoon before. :(  There's only a handful of bees and we looked pretty good for the queen.  I went ahead and brought them home...figured they'd have a better chance without the robbers and maybe just maybe the queen was hiding good.  We didn't find her dead on the bottom board so I'm hoping for the best.  Only thing is that with so few bees it seems we would have found her.

I opened up the nuc when I got home and lots of the bees (both swarm and robber bees...we trapped some robbers in when we closed the nuc up) were doing orientation flights.  Immediately after getting them home and place on the hive stand we had some strong storms to come through.  It was dark when I got home this evening so I'll check them in the morning and put a quart bag of sugar syrup on them.  I figure I'll give them a day or so to settle in and Saturday go back through the frames looking for the queen again....temps Saturday are in the mid-60's....Sunday is supposed to be in mid-70's but a little unsettled...is the mid-60's OK?

Ed

[Intheswamp]

I always worry about a small colony plugging up the comb with syrup and leaving no room for the queen to lay.  Hence I would keep an eye on them and limit the feed so they don't completely backfill the brood area.  Queen needs a place to lay if you want more bees.   

I'll be on the lookout to be sure they don't get syrup-bound.  As few bees as this is I doubt they'll get it too congested...but, what do I know...I've never kept bees before! :)

Feed is good for building comb and raising brood at the right time of the year, but we're going into winter now.  Don't know what bees do in Alabama in the winter.  Do they just try to keep warm or do they keep brooding?

I'm not sure about winter brood rearing down here.  We do have freezing weather, but it usually only freezes at night and warms above freezing during the day....normally well above freezing.  The freezing night time temps usually only last maybe a week at the most...rarely any longer than that.  Plenty of flying weather throughout the winter.

I've taken small colonies (2 frames of bees) through winter here in Michigan with electric heat.  So I would conclude they CAN make it if they don't get too cold.  I doubt you need electric heat in Alabama, but I like the foam baffle idea.

Well, if I find the queen I'll go forward with the foam baffle.  Would foil backed foam be ok...I figure it would keep the bees from chewing on it but could it be an undesirable "cold" wall for them?

Man, I hope that queen's there!
Ed

[BlueBee]

Young queens are hard to spot.  Relax, chant, and hope for the best. 

I used a lot of foam in my bee keeping, never bothered with foil.  My bees don't start chewing foam unless they are trapped inside or if the population is overflowing the size of their box.  I don't think you'll have either of those problems for a while.  I've used plain old pink foam as baffles before without problems.  You raise a good point about the heat conductivity of the foil side.  I don't know the answer to that one.

Don't forget about our friends the wax moth and SHB too.  They love to take advantage of comb that isn't covered by a lot of bees.  Aahhhhh, the joys of bee keeping  :-D

[FRAMEshift]

At this time of year, the only value is in the queen.  If you come out in the spring with a laying queen, you will have a colony.  Otherwise, we are just talking a handful of bees with a short life span. 

If you find the queen, then the next thing is to add enough bees to the nuc to give them a chance.  Since you have 2 other hives maybe you could take some bees from there. 

Otherwise, you should just combine these bees with one of your other hives.

[Intheswamp]

BlueBee, the reason I mentioned the foil backed foam is that I saw some the other day at Lowes...first time I'd seen any thick foam around here.  The interior of south Alabama has a continuing dearth of materials that are easier to find in metro areas.  It just caught my eye when I saw it.  I may end up using the thinner foam or what I can find surplus/scrap.  I think, with no more bees that we're talking about, that bare foam will work fine.  Yelper...been thinking about the pests, too.  Wide open nuc (medium frames hanging in a deep nuc).  I'll keep an eye out for the moths and I may go ahead and put in a frame top Beetle Jail.  There's never been any bees here (colony-wise) so it will be interesting(?) to see how long it takes for the black disks to show up.

FRAMEshift, I understand completely what you are saying.  Basically, without the queen this is a pit to throw a little sugar into for a while.  I'm hoping the queen is indeed in there, I'm holding my breath.  I'll be checking them out closer over the weekend...temp Saturday is near 70F.  Hopefully I won't be sitting in a cloud of robbers as we were when we were looking at my mentor's yard.  Once I finally determine "yea" or "nay" regarding the queen I'll have a better vision for which route I want to take.  It may end up just being a small learning experiment for me.

Thanks for the advice...keep it coming! :)
Ed

[Intheswamp]

Thanks everybody for your advice.  I checked today and hunted high and low for the queen...she isn't there.  As good as we looked the other day we should have found her then if she had been there,...but I was hoping.  The bees seem to be getting a little more anxious, I had a few headbutt my veil, but none tried stinging and I was gloveless...I think they're missing their queen.  But, if they'll hang on a few more days the situation will be solved for them! :)

My mentor checked yesterday with a friend of his "across the creek" to see if he had an extra queen.  The friend does some swapping and splitting all along and my mentor figured he might've had an extra queen.  He didn't have one, though.  Well, this evening my mentor called to tell me his friend had called him back and that his friend has a nuc in a medium 10-frame box that is going to have to be fed over the winter but that he really doesn't want to do it.  He said if I wanted it I could buy it from him.....$1 a frame to cover the cost of the wood frame.  Knock me over with a feather. :D  Christmas done come early....maybe I do believe in Santa Claus!! :D

We'll combine the handful of bees from the swarm with the nuc and have a good colony to try to carry through the winter.  It ought to be a good learning experience for me and hopefully by spring I'll be more comfortable with the bees and have an extra colony ready to bust out!  When I get my two colonies from my mentor this spring I should start out with a nice little bee yard to keep me busy!  (there was also a mention of maybe a double nuc thrown in the deal, too! ).  I'm looking forward to it all.  Wow, talk about some good folks...these are some good people.

Right now I've gotta finish up some wooden ware to swap those frames into.  I've got all my boxes and most of my frames put together but I haven't worked on my tops and bottoms yet.  My mentor told me there's no big hurry on it, so maybe over the next week I can get it ready.  I may see if he'll just let me borrow his wooden ware until I can get things put together *and* painted.  That way I can let the wood air out the paint odors for a while.  The wood is cypress so it could handle being in the weather some but I'd rather have it painted.

My mentor and his friend swap bees all along and the friend's bees are calm like my mentor's are which is a big plus for me...both guys have used caucasians in the past but in recent years most of their queens have come from local genetics from their own colonies and from feral colonies. 

Wow, I'm tickled pink...er, GOLD!!!! ;)
Ed

[BlueBee]

Swamp, I don't recall you saying what your hive configuration is going to be?  Are you going the all mediums route?  8 frames?  9 frames?  10 frames?  What are you using for foundation: wax or plastic?

It's always exciting to get more bees!

[derekm]

I always worry about a small colony plugging up the comb with syrup and leaving no room for the queen to lay.  Hence I would keep an eye on them and limit the feed so they don't completely backfill the brood area.  Queen needs a place to lay if you want more bees.   

I'll be on the lookout to be sure they don't get syrup-bound.  As few bees as this is I doubt they'll get it too congested...but, what do I know...I've never kept bees before! :)

Feed is good for building comb and raising brood at the right time of the year, but we're going into winter now.  Don't know what bees do in Alabama in the winter.  Do they just try to keep warm or do they keep brooding?

I'm not sure about winter brood rearing down here.  We do have freezing weather, but it usually only freezes at night and warms above freezing during the day....normally well above freezing.  The freezing night time temps usually only last maybe a week at the most...rarely any longer than that.  Plenty of flying weather throughout the winter.

I've taken small colonies (2 frames of bees) through winter here in Michigan with electric heat.  So I would conclude they CAN make it if they don't get too cold.  I doubt you need electric heat in Alabama, but I like the foam baffle idea.

Well, if I find the queen I'll go forward with the foam baffle.  Would foil backed foam be ok...I figure it would keep the bees from chewing on it but could it be an undesirable "cold" wall for them?

Man, I hope that queen's there!
Ed

foil backed foam is excellent I build hives out it. Its not a "cold wall" but a warm wall. The metal reflects the radiant heat and is so thin it cant chill anything. The bees dont chew through the brands we have over here in the UK.

[Intheswamp]

Swamp, I don't recall you saying what your hive configuration is going to be?  Are you going the all mediums route?  8 frames?  9 frames?  10 frames?  What are you using for foundation: wax or plastic?

It's always exciting to get more bees!

Yeahboy, in excitin'!!!!  Other that the little wad of bees this nuc/colony will be the first bees that I can walk out back anytime I want to and get stung!  :bee:  :-D

I'm going with all 8-frame mediums.  For this spring I'm going to be going with standard unwired wax.  I'm hoping to catch some feral hives this spring/summer and will start them on small cell or foundationless/natural.   My mentor isn't very receptive about small cell foundation (yet) so I'm walking easy there.   But, he's accepting the move to 8-frame boxes and he's in favor of the all-medium approach. It ain't over yet. ;) 

I've gotta admit, he and these friends (his friend's wife (~80? years old) helps her husband) that are "selling" me this nuc are some good, down to earth folks.  I met them at the bee convention in Montgomery this past October.  The friend is going to try his hand at queen raising this coming year...you're never too old to try something new!!!!!  :)

Ed

[Intheswamp]

I know this is small time, but to me this is the first queenright colony of bees that I've had to work (play?) with. :)

Well, me and my mentor rode over to his friends house last Saturday and picked up the 8-frame nuc.  I haven't outright asked him, but I think my mentor's friend was/is *his* mentor.  The visit there was a treat in itself...the fellow has one dandy of a woodworking shop and machine shop along with his honey house.  Nice setup. :)

Anyhow, he had that little nuc of bees that he didn't won't to have to feed over the winter so he told my mentor he'd sell them to me for a dollar a frame (8 medium frames).  There's probably a little more than two frames of bees.  There is pollen and capped honey *and* brood.  The queen is a dark leather looking gal.  We swapped his frames over into my medium 8-frame box.  Nice, gentle bees. 

There was a front moving in so once we got the bees sealed up we loaded them in the jeep and headed out.  I dropped my mentor off at his house and headed on home with the ladies.  A little light rain splattered the windshield on the ride home but it stopped before I got there.  Once at the house I didn't really know what to expect so with slight trepidation I opened the hive up and let them see their new stomping ground.  They were fine, many of them came out and started orienting.  It was 100% KOOL!!!!!

I left them along and let them settle in.  An hour or so later I came back and sprayed the bees in the little queenless nuc with sugar water and shook them off into the large nuc.  I then proceeded to put a quart of 1:1 sugar water on (best for brood?...I will be going to 2:1 for the next batch).  I put another 8-frame medium box on top to cover the quart jar with.  That evening a big front rolled through...*very* heavy rain and wind.  We had heavy rain for a couple of days...really tough weather.  After the rain stopped it turned cold and windy, it looked rather dismal...several dead bees on the porch, on the roof, no activity.  I wrapped the blocks underneath the hive with black tarpaper to block the wind off being as I'm using a screened bottom board...I figured they were small and needed the wind break.  We had several nights in the mid-20's along with some days that didn't make it to 50F.  A few days I don't think they came out at all, but a day or two there were a few flying in front of the hive...even though the temperature hadn't hit 50 degrees yet.??   

Anyhow, it finally warmed up yesterday and they were out flying.  This morning when I checked them it looked like there must of been a lot of new bees orienting to the hive, it was neat to watch.  The dead bees on the porch and just inside the hive had been removed.  I had slightly warmed up a jar of sugar syrup, figuring the one I had put on was cold and they wouldn't take it readily and that it might warm up any time soon.  When I opened the top the jar had probably only had 1/2" of syrup left in it and it had been full up to the neck when I put it on.  My initial thought was that the syrup must have leaked out.  But when I picked the jar up off of the screen covering the hole in the inner cover all I could see was bee faces packed tightly together eagerly lapping up the syrup.  This would have been just barely short of a full week since I had put the quart of syrup on....does that consumption sound about right for a couple of frames of hungry bees?  I had another piece of a quart ready to put on so I just emptied the little bit in the old jar into the new jar...I'll have to check it sooner than I did this last time, though.

It looks like tomorrow will be in the upper 60's so I'm thinking I'll make a quick inspection.  I want to see the queen, check the brood situation, and see if they're putting up any of that syrup.  When I move the jar off the inner cover (hole has a screen stapled to it) should I slightly smoke the bees there to get them to back away from the screen before removing the inner cover?

Both my mentor and my other mentor(?) :) have stated that even if this small colony of bees don't survive the winter that it'll be good experience for simply handling the bees.  I'm already getting more comfortable with them.  I'm wearing no gloves, only a helmet/veil and things are going ok.  I did get a slight sting on a finger when I was first setting them up, but no biggie.  Bees crawling on my fingers don't scare me but they do get my attention so that I know to be careful and not squeeze one.  I've haven't really had much interaction yet, though, being as the weather has been bad.  Tomorrow I should have my hands in them more than I have had so far.

One thing I noted, when I opened the top up initially to put the syrup on them I had no inner cover on at that time.  On the bottom of the top cover was a small wad of bees.  I poked them softly and discovered they were ganging up on a couple of shb!!!!  We had checked the trap that my mentor's buddy had in there and there were no beetles in it...and we didn't see any.  But, they were there when I pulled the top off...talk about getting initiated quick!!!  Anyhow, I mashed one quickly and the bees scattered.  The other beetle tried to get away but one of the bees grabbed it and rolled over on it's back holding that beetle tight!  I finally killed the beetle but that bee was *very* aggressive towards it...rather impressive to this newbee.  If I could just find a source of tiny switchblades to give those girls....

Anyhow, my education has begun and I hope I get to study for decades to come. ;)

Thanks for listening to me rattle on...I'm excited.  :-D
Ed