Dead hive - what should I do with frames?

tomiferris · December 26, 2011, 02:22:20 AM

We caught two swarms during the spring and they seemed to be doing quite well during the summer. I did a final check at the beginning of October and both had plenty of honey and brood in all stages. The hive that seemed to be thriving is now dead. I took the hive apart last weekend looking for a reason they didn't make it - there is honey, capped and uncapped - two mediums full. The bottom medium (I only use mediums - no deeps) had lots of pollen, honey, and very small circles where brood was. Most was hatched - a few still had bees in them but died eating their way out. I imagine the queen must have failed? Or they must not have had enough bees to keep warm. There doesn't appear to be any other reason. Of course, I'm still pretty new at this - only been doing it for about 3 years - so I'm only guessing since there wasn't anything suggesting disease. This hive sits between two other hives - they are still doing well, at least they are pretty active on warmer days, even bringing in pollen - although we have no idea where they are finding that! Clever girls!

But now I wonder, what should I do with the frames? Should I leave it through the rest of winter and hope another swarm settles in or even put a package of bees in it? Will it be bad for them to have to clean out the frames if left for so long? I worry about the uncapped honey - will it go bad? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

FRAMEshift · December 26, 2011, 06:55:12 AM

Did you find lots of dead bees on the frames or collected at the bottom? Or did your bees just leave the hive? Since the honey was left behind, your bees did not abscond. So if there are no piles of dead bees, that might mean CCD.

It has been so warm this year that it would seem unlikely that your bees were stuck in cluster and ran out of food. But you don't give your location, so it's hard to say. It would be a good idea to add you location to your user profile so we have some idea of the conditions where your hives are.

iddee · December 26, 2011, 03:57:41 PM

It sounds to me like they had no space to raise winter bees, so when the summer bees died, none were left.

Your location would help tremendously in answering your questions. Please put it in your profile. What to do with frames in Michigan won't work in Florida.

Country Heart · December 26, 2011, 04:09:16 PM

:pop:

tomiferris · December 26, 2011, 10:54:50 PM

I'm located in Northern California - it has been in the 20's at night and up to low 60's during the days. There were some dead bees in the hive - but not piles. They were very active up until about a month ago. That's when I noticed less and less activity - but didn't give it much thought since it is winter. So any thoughts on what I should do with the frames?

iddee · December 26, 2011, 11:35:39 PM

I would put each super in a large plastic bag and seal it. Store it where it will freeze a number of times before spring. Keep it as cool as feasible. Fermentation will not happen in cooler temps. Put more bees in asap in the spring.

PS. Fermented honey will not harm bees. They will either dispose of it or re-use it to make good honey. Mold on the pollen will also be cleaned up by the bees.

PPS. If you will go into your profile and put your location, we won't have to ask each time you ask a question.

FRAMEshift · December 27, 2011, 02:17:36 PM

Quote from: tomiferris on December 26, 2011, 10:54:50 PM
I'm located in Northern California - it has been in the 20's at night and up to low 60's during the days. There were some dead bees in the hive - but not piles. They were very active up until about a month ago. That's when I noticed less and less activity - but didn't give it much thought since it is winter. So any thoughts on what I should do with the frames?

The Northern California almond growing region is ground zero for CCD. Many people in that area lose hives to some combination of pesticide, nosema, and IPV. At least that's the latest theory I've heard. It sounds like you can't account for the missing bees. They left all the honey behind and left the hive. Those are the classic symptoms of CCD, as I understand it. If it were me, I would cut all the comb out of those frames so that you do not spread CCD to other hives in the future.

But I'm no expert on CCD.... just what I've read. We have not had CCD in North Carolina yet so I've never actually seen a case. I think you should consult with other beeks in the area and maybe call in a State Bee Inspector to see if it really is CCD.

rdy-b · December 27, 2011, 03:23:29 PM

CCD is a big jump- :) do you treat for mites-?if that was me i would place honey in a box or boxes and
set them on a over turned lid and put a lid on top-so bees wont rob them out-then place a over turned lid
over brood box -so light goes in and will deter wax moths-in the spring i would install package bees and use
the frames of honey to start them with- ;)-mite counts on other hives would be a concern--RDY-B

FRAMEshift · December 27, 2011, 06:02:57 PM

Quote from: rdy-b on December 27, 2011, 03:23:29 PM
CCD is a big jump- :)

Well, am I correct that Northern Cal is where most of the CCD cases occur? I haven't heard much about it this year so has it gone away? Is there anything in the description that Tomiferris gave that would make you think it's NOT CCD? What made me think about it was the fact that the bees disappeared quickly and did not take the honey with them. Is there some other sign you would look for?

rdy-b · December 27, 2011, 07:36:17 PM

* Is there anything in the description that Tomiferris gave that would make you think it's NOT CCD?*

yea the other two hives are fine- :)

* Is there some other sign you would look for?*

just queen sign-- :lol: we can use deduction to get to ccd -but i would not start out at that end
8-) RDY-B

iddee · December 27, 2011, 07:51:19 PM

* Is there anything in the description that Tomiferris gave that would make you think it's NOT CCD?*

Yes, very small circles are not enough to raise winter bees.

""there is honey, capped and uncapped - two mediums full. The bottom medium (I only use mediums - no deeps) had lots of pollen, honey, and very small circles where brood was.""

FRAMEshift · December 27, 2011, 09:40:29 PM

Quote from: iddee on December 27, 2011, 07:51:19 PM

Yes, very small circles are not enough to raise winter bees.

I guess I don't know enough about the climate of N. Cal. Most of our hives are not raising brood now. Well, except for one hive that has never stopped brood production.... very strange. So I wouldn't have thought about low brood production at this time of year as a problem. Wouldn't those winter bees have been raised back in November?

rdy-b · December 27, 2011, 10:11:44 PM

*Wouldn't those winter bees have been raised back in November?*

maybe thats why there are no bees now --they wernt raised in a sufficient number to maintain
the colony-no doubt a slow dwindle from mites and mite related obstacles -most times its mites-- ;) RDY-B

iddee · December 27, 2011, 10:44:23 PM

They couldn't raise bees 9 weeks ago without empty cells, none hatched 6 weeks ago. All are dead now.

rdy-b · December 27, 2011, 10:54:59 PM

Quote from: iddee on December 27, 2011, 10:44:23 PM
They couldn't raise bees 9 weeks ago without empty cells, none hatched 6 weeks ago. All are dead now.

and thats the How of it- is there a why of it- :) RDY-B

rdy-b · December 27, 2011, 11:05:21 PM

**It sounds to me like they had no space to raise winter bees, so when the summer bees died, none were left.**

hard to say but he speaks of areas that where void -where brood was

""there is honey, capped and uncapped - two mediums full. The bottom medium (I only use mediums - no deeps) had lots of pollen, honey, and very small circles where brood was.""

rdy-b · December 27, 2011, 11:10:40 PM

If hive went queenlees they would have pluged out
or went drone layer-seams dwindel afect was in progress for
quite some time intill it just fell down--RDY-B

iddee · December 27, 2011, 11:29:05 PM

He doesn't say how many dead bees there were. I'm guessing a couple hundred. Just enough to cover the small areas of brood, but not enough to keep the cluster warm.

Back to the original question. It is said to have been proven that ccd is not one virus, poison, or "one" anything else. It is a combo of things. I would still keep the frames of honey and pollen and use it in the spring. If he uses it, the most he can lose is a 90 dollar package of bees. If he doesn't use it, he is guaranteed to lose 200 dollars worth of honey and the pollen and drawn comb.

I would gamble the ""maybe lose a package"".

rdy-b · December 27, 2011, 11:35:21 PM

yes and to add he is catching swarms-that is where they came from -i think-
so he can keep swarm catching or even split one of the other hives-1-out of 3 for a lose
is not the end of next season -- :lol: RDY-B

tomiferris · December 29, 2011, 04:56:33 PM

Thank you all for the discussion. Just to explain where this swarm came from (maybe it will help) - I had one very strong hive in the spring. It swarmed - we caught that swarm and placed it in a new box - with two medium boxes of 8 frames. I wasn't able to return for about a month due to my schedule. I had to planned to go one weekend to add another super - but my mom called (it's on her property) midweek and said that they were swarming. I figured it was the whole hive leaving due to space issues - but it was a swarm. So we caught the 2nd swarm and now we had three hives.

The hive that just died was the 1st swarm. I still have the original hive and the 2nd swarm which I assume still has the original queen. Just a note - all three hives sit on the same stand - only a few inches between them. Is it possible that the middle hive could die and the two end hives live if it is CCD?

The weather was pretty inclement last weekend so I could only take a brief look, but I will go again Saturday and take a more thorough look through the boxes to see if I can glean anymore information. Is there anything in particular I should look for in order to determine what may have happened?