Possible mother/daughter hive?

[AliciaH]

Today was beautiful!  50 degrees, sunny, no wind.  I headed out to the apiary to check on hive weights, check sugar usage, and clean dead bees from the fronts of openings.

Much to my unpleasant surprise, one hive had a, what looks to be, newly dead queen on the top of their carcass pile.  I wasn't intending to open any one up today, but opened this hive to get a story. 

My "oh-please-you-didn't-really-lose-your-queen-in-January-when-there-are-no-drones-anywhere-for-at-least-two-states" moment turning into a "don't-ever-scare-me-like-that-again" moment when lo and behold, I found a queen (and eggs and young larvae and old larvae and capped brood)!  Shut the whole thing up as quickly as was safe, collected my dead queen for the alcohol jar and headed home.

Mother and daughter?  I can't imagine another hive would dump their queen on someone else's pile.  That would be a really bad joke.  If the queen had died awhile back, I don't think she would be in the good condition she's still in.

[BlueBee]

That isn't the queen from your ICU hive is it?  I have had the bees + queen from one nuc try to take over another nuc before.  The result is one dead queen.  If the bees decide they don't like their home for whatever reason and the weather isn't real great, they seem willing to take their chances at taking over another nearby hive.

I can hear your sigh of relief all the way over here!  It sure is a great feeling to see eggs and larvae!

[AliciaH]

Oh, good grief, that's all I need now, a winter corporate take over!

But no, it's not the ICU.  But to consider your point, I suppose it could be from another hive more immediate to this one.  I'll have to keep my fingers crossed that if that is what happened, that the bees are from somewhere else entirely and not from one of mine that is now queenless. 

So, thanks, BlueBee, for that new concern, lol!   ;)

[Finski]

.
My friend has a Giant hive. It had 11 boxes. It revieled out that 2 queen layed all the time and three winters it have wintered with 2 laying gueens. The mother queen is 4 years old.

It is rare. Never heard about this kind of douple queen. Often douple queen is about one month or less.

[BjornBee]

I usually use strong full size hives for grafting into, after I pull the queen. Many times I have found that they did nothing after pulling the queen. (IE. No queen cells) Upon further searching a second queen is usually found.

I have found that between 5 and 10% of all hives are two queen systems. It is not that uncommon.

Most beekeepers usually do not know hives are two queen hives, because in doing their inspection, and finding the first queen, they simply end their inspection and close up the hive.

Two queen systems are mostly mother/daughter queens. The older queen was protected or delayed in swarming by her surrounding bees. The swarm cells opened and all the daughters duked it out as they are not "protected' by bees like the mother queen is by some loyal followers.

So you get the older queen, who for whatever reason, left in the hive, and the colony is then willing to accept (as they should) a newer daughter queen.

Some of these two queen hives cast out the older queen late in the fall. (fall swarms, usually very small)  Others will choose and kill one. And sometimes, two queens come through winter. With insects, there is no rules cast in stone with such details.

[caticind]

Seconding Bjorn - I think mother/daughter colonies, with two queens laying for at least a short while, are much more common than people generally believe.

Out of 14 colonies I have spotted two live queens, both laying, on 3 occasions in the last 2 years (5 and 11%, respectively).  2 of those times were in the same colony in different years.  Nothing special about the genetics, Italians from a plain old Georgia package.  I don't usually look for queens in an inspection, just eggs, so I'm sure it has happened at other times without my notice.

[BjornBee]

Here is a frame I found with two queens....

[AliciaH]

I have read about two queen colonies here, and find it very exciting that it happens more than we think.  Why?  I don't know, I just think it's neat stuff!  :)

I wonder, though, if some of us don't notice it more because of a lack of understanding on what happens in a two queen hive?  The picture is great (thanks, Bjorn!), but it never occured to me that the two queens would be on the same frame.  I guess I thought they'd be on two different frames, each having their own area?

For those that find them more often, do you see the queens on the same frames, in different area, or is there a mixture of both and it's just a matter of noticing them?

By the way, Bjorn, can I copy that picture to show others?

[BjornBee]

Sure you can Alicia.

I think when they do it naturally, two queens just get along and they act as one.

There is a "two queen colony" system that is promoted for increased honey production, and other benefits. But this is the forcing of a colony with two queens, and they are kept apart with a queen excluder.

The two queen colonies I have found that decided to keep two queens on their own, you would of never known it witout finding the queens. There was no separation of brood, etc.

[AliciaH]

Thanks, Bjorn!

Very cool that the queens act as one with no separation of brood! 

I'm trying to disrupt my girls as little as possible any more to reduce their stress, but I'll make a point to try and be even more observant with my time.  Not that there aren't enough things to be looking for, but a natural double queen hive would be fun to find every now and then!

[caticind]

I have not seen them on the same frame, but on adjacent frames, yes.

[rdy-b]

This topic comes up every so often-and from what i have seen---two queens are not unusual
they are mother daughter and only one maintains egg laying--they also walk around together
on the same frame-I have also seen virgin queens that where trapped by queen excluder and never mate
It would be unusual for both queens to lay at full potential to make a double queen hive-that usually takes a
beekeepers help whether accidental or on purpose- :lol:  RDY-B

[caticind]

I don't know about full potential, but I actually did see both lay on one occasion.  You can bet I was slapping myself for not bringing a camera to the yard that time.

In the other instances, only one may have been doing the vast majority of the laying but both were clearly mated (not virgin, and the old queen not shrunken or visibly injured).  All 3 spottings were in the fall and not part of preparations for a swarm.

[AliciaH]

I can only guess that this old queen was laying to some extent up until they kicked her out (or she died).  She still looked fully ripe and not shrunken at all.

The frame where I found the darker queen had brood a 2" brood circle on one side and a 1" circle on the other.  Sounds like it's anybodies guess how the two ladies were working that out.

[texjim]

i learn something new in this hobby everyday...thanks everyone...