Foundationless russians?

Pre-Bee (Rowan) · February 09, 2012, 01:30:02 AM

In my research on kinds of bees I've seen several mentions of foundation versus drawn comb for Russians with the understanding that they are slow to draw, but I've also seen a lot of talk that bees draw faster when starting with foundationless. Has anyone tried starting Russians on foundationless frames or is this "Just Not Done"?

Thanks beeks!

Michael Bush · February 09, 2012, 04:23:29 AM

I've had Russians as well as Italians, Buckfasts, SMR, MN hygenic, NWC, Cordovan Italians, plain carniolans, Starlines and feral mutts on wax foundation, plastic foundation and foundationless. All of them draw foundationless faster than foundation.

jtow · February 09, 2012, 10:42:37 AM

Michael, do you have a preference for one type of bee over another as far as production and temperment?

backyard warrior · February 09, 2012, 07:38:59 PM

I have the same question for you Mike as him :) Chris

sterling · February 09, 2012, 07:44:13 PM

I put a Russian package in a 10 frame medium on 4.9 foundation and foundationless frames last year and they drew both out just fine. But of course that is just one package not a study.

Michael Bush · February 09, 2012, 11:15:06 PM

>Michael, do you have a preference for one type of bee over another as far as production and temperment?

Russians: they were a bit oddly defensive, had as many mites as the other bees but seemed to survive higher levels of them, and had an entirely different sense of timing for buildup. They were ok, but not my favorite.

Italians: they are brood rearing fools. They are nice to have a lot of bees early in the spring for queen rearing, but they aren't, in my opinion the best for northern bees.

Buckfasts: These were my favorite until I got some hot ones. Hot is an understatement, vicious is probably the best description. They built up at the right times, had a little larger cluster than the carnis bot smaller than the Italians. They wintered well.

SMR: They were not very hardy and didn't last long.

MN hygenic: The first ones I got were a bit hot, the next batch were better. But they are still Italains.

NWC: for a commercial bee, I like them a lot. They are a good Northern bee, with a good sense of timing and buildup and frual in the winter.

Cordovan Italians: The ones I had were not very hardy and did not survive well in my climate.

Plain carniolans: Not a lot of difference but perhaps more variety of results than the NWC.

Starlines: back when you could get them, they were very prolific and hardy for the first generation. Their offsrping, not so much.

Feral mutts: their traits vary a lot, but their sense of timing for my location is perfect and they winter well and in small clusters. Traits are similar, but more exagerated, to the Carnis. Some propolize heavily and act more like Caucasians or AMM but most are more like the Carnis in recent years. These are what I'm breeding from.

Pre-Bee (Rowan) · February 10, 2012, 02:30:07 AM

Thanks for the info. Do you find that Russians draw fast enough on foundationless that you don't really need to start with Italians and then requeen?

Michael Bush · February 10, 2012, 11:56:07 PM

>Do you find that Russians draw fast enough on foundationless that you don't really need to start with Italians and then requeen?

All bees draw comb. It's how they build their home. There is no need to start with Italians and requeen. Also no need to get Russians...

Pre-Bee (Rowan) · February 12, 2012, 10:11:37 PM

Sorry, for the stupid question and thanks for the answer. For some reason the info on them that I was finding kept saying they should be given comb that was already drawn so they wouldn't be so likely to swarm, I think. It wasn't really making much sense to me, hence the questions. Thanks again.

Michael Bush · February 13, 2012, 12:14:47 AM

Drawn comb will help any hive get established more quickly. If you have it, use it. If you don't, they will build it.

windfall · February 13, 2012, 09:00:48 AM

Rowan,

What I have been told (by our supplier) is that you can use empty drawn comb when timed correctly to help reduce the strong tendency russains show for swarming.
The theory is adding the comb around or just after dandelion bloom allows the bees to "spread out" and feel less crowded. Supposedly just adding empty frames or frames with foundation does not accomplish this as well.

It isn't that they don't draw it well, it is about adding lots of available territory instantly.

The other suggestion is to pull some frames of brood out around the same time.

Last year we started with Russian hybrids nucs and were warned of their "powerful urge to swarm". We went foundationless and they drew lots of nice comb no problem. But even adding empty frames into the broodnest regularly they still decided to start swarm cells. We caught it in time and did splits but still got 2 swarms (which we were able to catch).
I think if we had split earlier (before the bees started the cells) it would have been better. This year we will have some comb to work with and hopefully be able to deal with things better.