help me undestand some things about q-cells

windfall · May 24, 2012, 10:18:44 AM

I have read up pretty well and I thought I understood the basics well. But now that I have an Ob hive running and I am watching the process, several questions have come to me:

1)Is there a high failure rate for q-cells, Why do they make so many if the first to emerge will destroy the rest?

2) When making "emergency cells" do they start all of them with larva of the same age? I understand that a larva from 1-3 days old can be used. Today I notice that some of the cells in the hive are capped while others are not. Those that are capped are noticably shorter than those still in progress. Is this because they were started with larva a day older? Better feed and care? Obviously someone has to get capped first, and perhaps by the end of the day the rest will be also (OB hive started Sat afternoon)

3) are the first to be capped the first to emerge, or do other factors effect the pupa period? If so why bother with the later cells since they will be destroyed by emerging virgin? Does first out also signify strongest/best developed?

4) Why raise so many potential new queens, then have them eliminated down to one prior to the relatively high risk mating flights, at which point if they do lose her they have no resources to try again?
I trust evolution, millions of years of selective pressure chase out more options than I could possibly imagine. So I know there are reasons for this last behavior...but being human I can't help but think "why not let several mate and get home safe, then have them fight it out?" It would seem a more prudent strategy. The resources in making them have already been expended.

I can already tell that having this OB hive is going to have me asking a lot more questions. It helps to bring out the nuances of what I have read and seen briefly during inspections before. It also gets the whole family asking me questions to which I usually have no answer, so expect to see more posts like this from me!

Thanks for any thoughts

beehappy1950 · May 24, 2012, 11:43:16 AM

God makes a lot of seeds that never grow. Maybe the extra queens will get killed and thrown out the front to become bird food. Everything has a purpose. Harold

sterling · May 24, 2012, 12:08:26 PM

I thought the purpose of an Observation Hive was to help anwser questions. :-D :-D Let us know what they do with the queen cells.

Robo · May 24, 2012, 12:39:40 PM

Many good questions, wish I had all the answers for you. When creating emergency queen cells, the bees will use whatever they can. Will they use "appropriate" age larvae, yes. Will they ONLY use appropriate age larvae? I have my doubts, since they will attempt to make cells out of drone larvae if that is the only choice.

Our friends that are proponents of small cell helping fight varroa claim since the cells are smaller, it takes less time for the larvae to pupate and become a bee. This shortened time is detrimental to the mite reproductive cycle. I would think the same theory would apply to queen cell size. With that in mind, the smallest queens will emerge first.

Quote from: windfall on May 24, 2012, 10:18:44 AM
Does first out also signify strongest/best developed?

I would say just the opposite. Smaller cells mean less royal jelly and less time to develop. I always like to see unused royal jelly in the bottom of hatched cells. Larger cells usually have excess royal jelly. This tells me there was plenty of food for development. When there is no royal jelly left, I have concerns with nutrition requirements being fully met.

I am not a believer in emergency queens. Just because they can raise a queen under such adverse conditions does not mean it will be a good queen. Emergency queens happen much less in nature that we as beekeepers cause.

Just seems to me the odds of getting a less than stellar queen to be the first to hatch and kill any potentially better (bigger and longer developing) queens is too high to risk the future of the entire hive. My experience has been that emergency queens have a much higher fall and winter failure rate.

windfall · May 24, 2012, 01:29:44 PM

Thanks for the replies,
Harold, I agree there is almost always purpose and often it lies in complexity beyond our grasp...but a curious mind will try.

Sterling, I think for awhile all this hive is going to do is make questions...then I can start watching for answers. :)

Robo, I was thinking just last night how common an e-queen event is. Without our tinkering....as you point out, probably not very common. It may not the best place to start my education/observations but I am working with what I have...if they do well maybe I will get to watch them swarm later. I hear it doesn't take much with only 3 frames.
It's funny, my first impulse was to want to cull the first two little capped cells I saw this AM to favor the larger ones, bigger is better right?....see I am a good American :-D
Fortunately that would be way to big a pain, so will just watch and see.

The hive has continued to cap cells all morning, so perhaps they will all end up capped within the day. It is interesting to note they get progressively larger the later they were capped. Now about 6 capped and 8+ not so. I marked there location and capping time as best I can. If I get to see them emerge will try to compare. The only other thing of note is that the few isolated single cells were the first to be capped. Those in groups (which also seemed better tended) are mostly still open.

Sorry to bore you all with the minutia of my observations, but my non-beekeeping friends won't let me even broach the subject anymore!

BeeMaster2 · May 24, 2012, 01:39:36 PM

I think you will find out that a lot of the smaller cells will be removed before they hatch. I had 5 small Q cells in my OB hive and only the last one opened the cell from the inside. The others just disappeared. They were on very old, black comb and I never did see the last one. None of them were in a direct vertical position. After that I pulled out all of the frames and replaced them with rather new drawn comb and gave them a brand new mated swarm queen. That was 5 weeks ago and they are just starting to cover the second frame. Good luck.
Jim

Country Heart · May 24, 2012, 05:10:23 PM

Quote from: windfall on May 24, 2012, 01:29:44 PM
Sorry to bore you all with the minutia of my observations, but my non-beekeeping friends won't let me even broach the subject anymore!

Windfall, not boring at all.

Please keep the questions coming, especially for the rest of us who are not yet lucky enough to have an OB hive. In fact, I have a special request...pictures (or video), please?

BlueBee · May 25, 2012, 02:09:05 AM

1.) I don't believe the first to emerge always kill all the rest. I believe it depends upon circumstances. During swarming season they make a lot of queen cells and quite often you get a few after swarms from a hive. The queens evidently act differently in the case of supercedure for some reason.

2,3,&4 I have no idea. You're the one with the Observation hive :-D

Quote from: windfall on May 24, 2012, 01:29:44 PM
my non-beekeeping friends won't let me even broach the subject anymore!

LOL, that is hilarious! Yep, you're a bee keeper :)

Michael Bush · May 25, 2012, 03:03:49 AM

>1)Is there a high failure rate for q-cells, Why do they make so many if the first to emerge will destroy the rest?

Emergency cells are all the same age. Swarm cells are all different ages. When swarming the first out is the second to swarm and is only allowed to destroy the rest if they are finished swarming. But more queen cells is better insurance and the survival of the colony depends on having a viable queen.

>2) When making "emergency cells" do they start all of them with larva of the same age?

Basically, yes. They might vary by 24 hours in age, but probably not more.

> I understand that a larva from 1-3 days old can be used. Today I notice that some of the cells in the hive are capped while others are not. Those that are capped are noticably shorter than those still in progress.

Which is indicative of swarm cells.

>Is this because they were started with larva a day older?

Yes.

>3) are the first to be capped the first to emerge, or do other factors effect the pupa period?

Basically, yes. Other factors would apply to all of them such as heat.

>If so why bother with the later cells since they will be destroyed by emerging virgin? Does first out also signify strongest/best developed?

In the case of staggered ages, they are swarm cells.

>4) Why raise so many potential new queens, then have them eliminated down to one prior to the relatively high risk mating flights, at which point if they do lose her they have no resources to try again?

A mystery that beekeepers have wondered about for a long time. It makes sense that they would raise a lot of them, but why not keep them around until you find out if the first one mated...

>I can already tell that having this OB hive is going to have me asking a lot more questions. It helps to bring out the nuances of what I have read and seen briefly during inspections before. It also gets the whole family asking me questions to which I usually have no answer, so expect to see more posts like this from me!

You will learn more in a year of watching "live bee tv" than all the books...

windfall · May 25, 2012, 09:24:57 AM

Thanks again for the feedback folks,

Most of the remaining cells got capped overnight, so it does seem they all about the same age. There are still 2 big beautiful long cells that are open but it looks like they are starting to close them off as well. And there are 2 that are open but appear to have been started several days after the first batch...not much more than big cups.

All told I think there are 15 Q-cells. The frames had many cups when I loaded the Ob hive, but none had eggs so they have remained the same.

Sawdstmkr, the first capped and shortest cells are as you describe on old dark comb, isolated and not really true vertical. The smallest looks like a bent drone cell. I hope you are right and they "disappear", I really don't think I want them as the queen... but what do I know? Almost all of the cells are on the 1 newer comb,as to be expected. Its softer and had some space and eggs along the edges

Countryheart, Glad not to bore! This is certainly a more receptive audience than the parents at the kids' playgroup. I am sure the questions will keep coming. I have been trying to get some images and video, but the glare off the glass and the camera's auto focus have been challenging. I anted up for laminated safety glass when building the hive...I wish I had asked if it was available in "no glare" finish. Live and learn.

Bluebee, Glad to give a giggle. The way you like to tinker,build and observe I am surprised you don't have a OB hive.

Michael, I appreciate the point by point response. could you please clarify on:

QuoteI understand that a larva from 1-3 days old can be used. Today I notice that some of the cells in the hive are capped while others are not. Those that are capped are noticeably shorter than those still in progress.

Which is indicative of swarm cells.

>Is this because they were started with larva a day older?

Yes.

I believe you meant the staggered capping times is the swarm cell indicator, but were you also referring to the graduated size of the cells (first capped smallest, largest as yet uncapped)? And is there a correlation between queen quality and cell size?
I am pretty sure these would all qualify as e-cells not swarm, and 24hrs isn't really all that staggered is it? But there are an awful lot of them for the number of bees in the hive. The OB hive was packed the first 24hrs, but once the foragers left the population seems quite moderate...I just can't see them swarming.

QuoteYou will learn more in a year of watching "live bee tv" than all the books...

I can believe that. I am only a week in and already many things I was "fuzzy" on are quite clear. The small details really fill out the bigger picture. And being able to peak in on this hive all the time is keeping me from hassling the hives outside every few days to satisfy my newbee curiosity.
The one thing that is driving me crazy is not to be able to blow on a spot in the frame to scoot the bees away for a better view. They are always milling about right where I want a good look!

Michael Bush · May 25, 2012, 11:18:41 PM

>I believe you meant the staggered capping times is the swarm cell indicator

Yes.

> but were you also referring to the graduated size of the cells (first capped smallest, largest as yet uncapped)?

No.

>And is there a correlation between queen quality and cell size?

A question that has been around for a while. There may be a loose connection, but certainly not a firm correlation. They may be larger because they were fed better or for no particular reason. I've seen queen cells that looked as small as 1/2" and as large as 4" long. I've seen good queens from all sizes of cells.

>I am pretty sure these would all qualify as e-cells not swarm, and 24hrs isn't really all that staggered is it?

If they are all withing 24 hours, no.

>But there are an awful lot of them for the number of bees in the hive. The OB hive was packed the first 24hrs, but once the foragers left the population seems quite moderate...I just can't see them swarming.

An observation hive will swarm at the drop of a hat.

Grandpa Jim · May 26, 2012, 01:28:01 AM

The other thing that can happen, since there is no brood to hold them there, a new queen and it is early summer, is they can abscond. Mine absconded one year in October....last year they made several queen cells, just as yours did. The first one hatched. There was another one in one corner and the bees seemed to be guarding it, always bees almost packed around it. The first queen left with good many of the bees. Figured I still had that second cell...must have been why they were saving it. Well it hatched and the rest of the hive abconded with her....totally empty hive! You could add a frame with more eggs to hold them in the hive till she is mated and begins to lay.

You can see the new queen's actions and the other bees reactions to her. They are different depending on what they have planned. Seems a virgin queen that is going to stick around is ignored by the bees as she runs around the hive touching everyone, piping and making herself known....but the bees don't seem to pay attention to her. Once she returns mated the bees begin to treat her like the royality that she is. The queen that was leaving with the swarm and the one that absconded seemed to draw a crowd when she moved around the hive (much like a mated queen). They also gathered around when she piped as if making plans for the next day.

I have just a 2 frame hive and usually move them into nuc about nor or earlier and begin again in September. Michael is right, you will learn so much form your OH.....enjoy!!
Jim

windfall · May 26, 2012, 03:23:31 PM

Michael,Thank you for the clarification.

Jim, in an earlier thread regarding stocking the hive you warned me how hard they can be to keep this time of year. Sometimes I don't listen so good ;)
I am starting to think I may well have overstocked this one. As mentioned the first day was packed, then the foragers left for "home" and I was worried there were not enough bees to cover the brood scattered over 3 frames. Now as more and more of the capped brood emerge, the hive seems pretty full....and they have capped most of the brood that was open when stocked....so there are a bunch more bees not too far off.

Watching the rapid growth in population has been another of the valuable lessons. I knew from the reading and math what would happen, but actually watching the frames go from lightly covered to well covered in a matter of days, well now I understand.

All of the cells are now capped except one. It is close to 2+" long. It started to run into the bottom bar and they put a little turn on it and have kept going. Interestingly (to me) the 2-3 cells that I thought were started well later were capped over night. They are "shorties" but apparently about the same age as the rest.

If the hive is in swarm mode, I am inclined to just observe and not attempt to alter the outcome. Fortunately I am at home much of the time and it's likely that I will be present if it happens.
In an effort to "be prepared" what can one do with the kind of small/micro virgin swarm that I might retrieve? How likely is it to become viable in a nuc with a frame of stores? I suppose I could add a frame of brood as well to anchor and boost them, but unless I shake it clear of bees I would worry about moving a mated queen over accidentally, not really a risk I want to run on a whim/experiment.

Grandpa Jim · May 27, 2012, 02:35:25 AM

Because you will not have a laying queen for a while your population may hold steady as older bees die off and new bees hatch. I never feel that there are mistakes with the OH. Everything that happens is a learning experience that you cannot get opening a hive, even if you opened it every day, you could not observe what is you can in the OH.....Every beekeeper should have one for a year or two.
Jim