Interior finish?

Royall · May 27, 2012, 02:58:29 PM

Sorry, new guy here and got posted this in the wrong spot a little earlier.....

Aloha,

My first post so please bare with me..... I'm not a bee keeper but a woodworker. A friend is and has asked me to build some boxes for him. So far I've made a specific bottom box that is designed to trap most hive beetles in a pan of cooking oil. I've enjoyed doing this an figured there may be a market to build and stock pile a few different components. The question I have is this: My friend wants the interior of the boxes clear finished. I haven't read anywhere about a finish being applied to hives. He mentioned it was to help with any mold problems. The humidity is high here in the Hilo area but thought the bees took care of that kind of "housekeeping". Maybe he was just thinking in the bottom box where the bees could not get to. BTW..... there is a screen in the bottom box to keep the bees from the oil.

I can get around on the internet quite well but still have a hard time doing a proper search.

Mahalo nui

Royall

PS. This is a very nice forum!

BlueBee · May 27, 2012, 03:19:42 PM

I only see mold problems here in the winter. The bees do circulate the air in a hive and that seems to prevent mold in the summer. Ventilation may be the best solution for mold. Most of my hives are foam with some form of wood interior; some with cheap fungus susceptible wood. In some designs, the wood has gotten pretty moldy in winter and I have tried to combat that with various strategies including interior paint and poly. I can tell you that painting the interior with latex paint is pretty pointless since moisture and mold will go right through it. If your goal is to prevent moisture from getting to the wood, I would go with poly or oil based enamel. You also avoid the blocking issues with poly or enamel.

Royall · May 27, 2012, 03:51:16 PM

Mahalo Bluebee...

Does the oil based finished effect the bees at all? That is the concern of the man I've made some of the bases for.

BlueBee · May 27, 2012, 04:02:19 PM

I don't have scientific studies to say how much out gassing oil based and poly emits as a function of time. We do know they cure to a very hard finish in a short period of time and hence my guess is 99% of the out gassing of volatiles occurs within the first week, but just a guess. Latex can take months to completely cure.

Most people do not paint or poly the interior of a bee hive. I only do so as an experiment since I'm using closed cell foam which vapor does cannot pass through. The bees will coat the interior of a wood hive with propolis which is a tar like substance created from tree sap. It's all they really need. As far as out gassing goes, trees and sap can out gas a substantial amount of hydrocarbons themselves. The hydrocarbons outgassed from the blue ridge mountain trees are what makes them look "blue" from a distance. As with most things bees, nothing is ever 100% perfect.

Royall · May 27, 2012, 04:20:37 PM

Mahalo again BlueBee.... the more I read about bees, the more interested I am. I don't know if I'll ever be a bee keeper but I do enjoy studying them!

Aloha,

Royall

AndrewT · May 28, 2012, 02:13:19 PM

I'm also a woodworker, and I like to make as much of my bee stuff as I can. Last winter, I saw the wax, dipping thing on Michael Bush's website and I decided to do something a little different with some bottom boards that I had made. I don't make enough stuff to justify setting up a dipping tank, so I took my Stanly heat gun and heated up the wood and put beeswax on it. When you get the wood hot, it soaks up a good bit of the wax. Not as good as dipping, but better than plain wood.

I like to paint all my hives white on the outside, but I don't think you want any kind of coating on the inside. The bees will cover it with wax and propolis anyway.

Royall · May 29, 2012, 02:06:11 PM

Thanks for the information Andrew. Does the wax have to be very thick or just a light coating? Oh, and while I'm asking lots of questions.... When you paint the outside of your hives, do you paint the top edge where the next hive or lid rests?

BlueBee · May 29, 2012, 06:50:06 PM

I've also applied wax to some homemade feeders in the fashion that AndrewT mentioned. It works, but you need to use common sense and be careful when heating up wax with a heat gun. Wax = Hydrocarbons = Flash Fire if it gets too hot. You've also got the potential of dripping hot wax on yourself and getting a significant burn. Be careful if you attempt melting wax with a heat gun.

As for the mating surfaces (top edges) I don't paint them if I'm using latex paint because the latex will stick the boxes together like glue until the latex fully cures. That can take months. "Blocking" is the technical term the paint guys use to describe the stickiness of dried latex paint. However if you don't protect those edges they will probably be the first areas of rot (in many years down the road) since a water film will persist in some of those joints. I don't paint the mating surfaces.

rober · May 29, 2012, 08:17:48 PM

use a good oil base primer & finish coat on the outside & the top & bottom edges. the interior will get coated by the bees. i caulk the inside corners to deny small hive beetles & mites any hiding places. you can usually find improperly mixed or custom colored paint that was never picked up by the customer for a fraction of list price. i just bought some sherwin williams A-100 for $3.00 per gallon. the customer never picked up the paint. oil base holds up better & cures faster. i have some hives that i primed with oil & then used ext latex for the finish coat 2 months ago & the latex is still not hard. some hives i painted 2 weeks ago with oil base are good to go.

affreux · May 29, 2012, 09:46:52 PM

You may want to read "constructive beekeeping" by ED Clark. You can download the pdf. from Amazon.com for free. Trying a couple of hives now with his method of sealing with varnish.

BeeMaster2 · May 29, 2012, 10:43:37 PM

Quote from: Royall on May 27, 2012, 04:20:37 PM
Mahalo again BlueBee.... the more I read about bees, the more interested I am. I don't know if I'll ever be a bee keeper but I do enjoy studying them!

Aloha,

Royall

Royall,
I think you are already hooked. The more you study it the more enjoyable it becomes. There is a lot to learn about beekeeping.
Beekeeping for Dummies has construction instructions for DIY.
I also do wood working and getting into beekeeping gives me wood working projects to do.

Enjoy.
Jim

Royall · May 31, 2012, 04:08:11 PM

You may be right Jim! The frustrating thing I'm facing right now is conflicting info from what I read VS what I hear from the fellow that I've been working with. He is new to beekeeping but won't let me use any oil based products on the hive. He say's it will make the bees sick. I'm thinking of just doing what I'm learning here and if he is going to be closed minded about what is going on in the real world, he can make his own and I'll start selling mine on Craig's list. I do like to work in my shop but it has to pay for it's self. Question to you Jim, (or anyone)... What kind of joint do you use on your boxes? I see most appear to be finger/box joints but see so many plans and Youtube videos or Google search of just using rabbet joints. When I built to sell I want to be sure that I do what the market wants so I don't sit on a pile of boxes forever! lol

Mahalo

D Coates · May 31, 2012, 05:41:34 PM

Royall,

Welcome to the site. In my opinion the oil will not effect the bees. I had some scrap lumber that someone had stored/spilled used motor oil on for a few years. I went ahead and used it in a nuc to see what effect it had. It had a definite used motor oil smell that became more pronounced the warmer the temperature got. Long story short, I had a swarm call it home and I've been using the nuc in one way shape or form for the past 5 years with no ill effects and the smell is long gone. There's even a picture of a cut out somewhere on here of a hive being removed from a long abandoned fuel tank of a car. If he's a paying customer, do as he requests, but as a newbee he has as much actual experience as you but apparently less knowledge. If you're going to get into this yourself poke around on sites like this one, take what you read with a grain of salt, and don't be afraid of trying things yourself.

BlueBee · May 31, 2012, 08:14:16 PM

If you want to sell our woodworking to bee keepers, I would probably go with the box joints to ensure I could sell the boxes to other bee keepers. Bee keepers can be pretty particular about the details; as you're finding out from your friend. Conventional bee hives use box joints. Use them or be unconventional.

Personally I couldn't care less about the joinery as long as it doesn't fall apart in a few years. I use butt joints and screws, and don't give it a second thought. Most beeks would frown at that, while I spend my time frowning at the idea of using thin ¾" 0.75-R wood for hives. We all have our own strange obsessions :-D

As for the paint, most beeks don't even consider painting the inside surfaces, (they want "natural") so you might hold off on painting those interior surfaces until you have a check in your hand from your friend :)

Beregondo · May 31, 2012, 11:04:06 PM

Royall,

I use rabbet joints on my boxes. I like the lower exposure of endgrain and simplicity.

I think that the primary reason for box joints being so widely used is that most boxes are sold unassembled, and box joints let the inexperienced people assembling them at home get the box square much more easily.

It's a little stronger than a box joint, and more popular and therefore easier to sell.
But the extra labor to cut a box joint is something to consider as well.

With a good glue, as you likely know, the wood will break before the actual joint whether you use a rabbet OR a box joint.

hardwood · June 01, 2012, 10:48:36 AM

Make the boxes and give them to your friend unfinished...let him decide what he wants to do with them!

Scott

Royall · June 01, 2012, 02:29:30 PM

Mahalo to all that posted.... Lot of good information. Love the internet and great forums like this one.

So, it sounds like if I plan to sell the hives, use box joints and use oil base primer and paint on the exterior for the most part. I guess I'd better work up a good sound box joint jig for the saw!

I think I had some interest in the boxes from the bees yesterday... Had a lone bee in the shop checking things out!

Royall

pembroke · June 01, 2012, 04:17:06 PM

so in Hawaii if you have screened bottom board and top ventlitation plus strong hive were is mold coming from? pembroke

Royall · June 01, 2012, 10:36:45 PM

I don't know.... It could be just a fear my friend has because things do mold very easy here. My doors and windows are open all the time just to keep the air moving. There are times I go into town and leave the doors open if we've had a real wet spell.

CapnChkn · June 02, 2012, 03:22:13 PM

The main reason for not finishing the interior of the hive bodies is the bees will chew, lick, scrape, and otherwise finish it to their liking. They'll varnish it with propolis, a substance they produce from tree resins, or to quote a Zambian beekeeper, the Scabs of the trees.

If they can't get to the surfaces, they'll not be able to use the antiseptic properties of the propolis to keep the surfaces clean, so it would mold. I don't really know if the tray area of the bottom board would create any problems with molding, but unless the bees track through it and carry it into the nest the only reason for coating the interior would be for looks.

If the bees don't get to those surfaces there's no problem in covering it with whatever works unless that material, like BlueBee says, gasses out as it cures. Then what is out gassing is the next question. My preference would be Beeswax. It could be varnish, finishing oils, or paint, but I think it's an extra step.