Is woodware interchangeable?

Bee Curious · August 03, 2012, 09:54:00 PM

I'm still in the reading-up stage to set up a hive next spring. I am enjoying reading the catalogs I have received from vendors such as Dadant, Mann Lake, and others. My question is: Is the woodware sized to be 100% interchangeable--if I buy supers from one supplier, will it fit on another supplier's screened bottom board? Will all the inner covers and telescoping covers fit on all boxes? Will Vendor A's boxes sit perfectly on Vendor B's boxes? Are all medium frames universal for medium boxes?

In other words, is there any pitfalls in buying from multiple suppliers when it comes to woodware?

AllenF · August 03, 2012, 10:24:45 PM

Yes. And no. As far as I am concerned (and most every one else) they are all fit. But there are 1/8 inch difference between all the makers. No 2 are alike. And I bet a 10 year old box and frames would be different from the same maker of today. There was a study in one of the bee journals about 2 years ago on this. They measured all the makers and listed all the sizes of frames and boxes. But I would not sweat it. I use them all. I have 40 year old homemade frames with nail for ends. Crazy looking frames. But they still work. So my brushy frames work well on my Rossman boxes.

kingbee · August 04, 2012, 01:51:07 AM

Quote from: Bee Curious on August 03, 2012, 09:54:00 PM... My question is: Is the woodware sized to be 100% interchangeable ...Are all medium frames universal for medium boxes?... is there any pitfalls in buying from multiple suppliers when it comes to woodware?

Yes, or no. Boxes from Better Bee I am told are made from 7/8 inch thick boards instead of 3/4 inch thick boards. The interior measurements are the same but the extra 1/8 inch thickness per board makes a 1/4 inch difference in both length and in width. This is not considered a problem. Since I do not own any of these boxes this is hearsay on my part.

There is or was such a thing as top bee space boxes verses bottom bee space boxes. The frames for these boxes are also usually different. All tops, covers, and bottoms were or are interchangeable. The frame in a top bee space box sits 5/16 to 3/8 of an inch below the top edge of the box, while the bottom bar of the frame hangs dead even with the lower edge of the box or super.

A bottom bee space box or frame is dead even with the top of the box or super and has a 5/16 to 3/8 inch space between the bottom of the frames and the lower edge of the box.

Ask your supplier which type of box or frames you are ordering. If they don't know don't spaz, just ask to speak to someone who does know. Tops can be a bear to pry loose from bottom space boxes because given enough time the bees will glue or propolize the flush top bars tightly to the bottom of the lid. In case you ever put a top space box over a bottom space box, upload your first inspection video to you-tube, we could all use a laugh. :laugh: Top space boxes (I think) are now the industry standard, but don't think, know. Good luck.

Jim134 · August 04, 2012, 08:48:40 AM

Quote from: kingbee on August 04, 2012, 01:51:07 AM
:laugh: Top space boxes (I think) are now the industry standard, but don't think, know. Good luck.

I do not know this ???

I would like to know why most vendor deep boxer on deeps are 9 5/8" and deep frames
are 9 1/8 " (all the deep frames I found from all vendor are 9 1/8"this may charge) :laugh:
this as 1/2 bee space the only vendor I found that make 9 1/2" deep boxer is
Humble Abodes Inc.! in Windon,ME. is their more ??? who make 9 1/8'' deep boxer ???

http://www.humbleabodesinc.com/

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

Sundog · August 04, 2012, 03:07:51 PM

All dimensions have a "tolerance" regarding what is acceptable, "perfect" being determined in large part by how many decimal places measured to. I would guess that the tolerance on wooden ware is around 1/16" (.0625"), so if one comes in large and the other small you could have 1/8" difference.

Articles that come from the same manufacturer A's tooling will be very close to each other but not necessarily to manufacturer B's. So if you stay with the same supplier your deviations should be less.

Google "10 frame bee hive plans" and you will see the "nominal" dimensions. I hesitate to use the term "industry standard", but I think they are widely accepted.

I am certain however that Beeks worry more about such things than bees.

Have fun!

Bee Curious · August 04, 2012, 04:38:05 PM

Thanks to all who replied. What got me thinking about 'mixing and matching' was finding that some woodenware is made from pine and some from cedar or cypress. I thought,"Hmmm, cedar might be better for a bottom board or telescoping top because it is more rot resistant and probably a bit more weather resistant. Pine should do for the boxes, as they will be well painted and easy to replace and repaint if necessary."

asprince · August 04, 2012, 04:41:12 PM

I have all kinds of boxes and equipment. Cedar, cypress, pine, box joint, dovetailed, store bought, home made. old, very old, and new. I mix it all up and the bees make it work.

Steve

Bee Curious · August 04, 2012, 04:44:09 PM

Quote from: kingbee on August 04, 2012, 01:51:07 AM

Yes, or no. Boxes from Better Bee I am told are made from 7/8 inch thick boards instead of 3/4 inch thick boards. The interior measurements are the same but the extra 1/8 inch thickness per board makes a 1/4 inch difference...

There is or was such a thing as top bee space boxes verses bottom bee space boxes.

This is really valuable info, that I have not read elsewhere. This forum rocks for all the information and experience available. Thanks, kingbee!

Quote from: kingbee on August 04, 2012, 01:51:07 AM
In case you ever put a top space box over a bottom space box, upload your first inspection video to you-tube, we could all use a laugh. :laugh: Top space boxes (I think) are now the industry standard, but don't think, know. Good luck.

Very funny. :shock: Thanks for the headsup.

tryintolearn · August 05, 2012, 09:20:38 AM

oh yesss yes it does...finding lots of valuable info here as well

Intheswamp · August 05, 2012, 12:03:01 PM

Here's a list of widths of 8-frame equipment that I rounded up. Not sure if it'll help, but... :)

Ed

Rossman 13-3/4"
Kelleys 13-3/4" (ok, I just looked and Kelleys is stating 13-13/16")
Miller 13-3/4"
Brushy Mountain 13-3/4"
Dadant 13-3/4"
Mann Lake 14"
Betterbee 14"
Western Bee state standard as being 13-3/4" but will cut to your specs.

kingbee · August 05, 2012, 02:36:16 PM

Quote from: Jim 134 on August 04, 2012, 08:48:40 AM... I would like to know why most vendor deep boxer on deeps are 9 5/8" and deep frames are 9 1/8 " [deep]...

'Bound' if I know Jim. I was planning to ask you why a 9 5/8 box takes a 9 1/8 inch frame but the 9 1/8 inch frame requires an 8 3/4 inch foundation? Looks like someone stole 7/8 of an inch. :laugh: :-D

kingbee · August 05, 2012, 03:23:45 PM

Here's one for you.
Why is Rossman Aperies selling 9 5/8 boxes but 9 1/8 frames while at the same time selling 8 3/4 inch tall plastic foundation designed to fit in an 8 1/2 inch frame they claim is 9 1/8 inches tall but yet it "fits" a 9 5/8 inch box???

http://www.gabees.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=29&products_id=149

ApalacheeRiverFarms · August 05, 2012, 03:43:01 PM

I don't always pick up on sarcasm well especially in the written word, but I hope that's what I'm seeing folks... bee space... frame space...

AllenF · August 05, 2012, 05:13:16 PM

Bee space = A space between and 3/8 inch which permits free passage for a bee but too small to encourage comb building, and too large to induce propolizing.

ApalacheeRiverFarms · August 05, 2012, 05:23:22 PM

I was answering about the reason for the difference in sizes. Difference in hive height and frame height is bee space. Diff in frame height and foundation height is frame wood plus wiggle room. most boxes I've seen have a small space on top of the frames and 3/8" between the bottom of the frames and bottom of the box... Thus the 9-5/8 box and 9-1/8" frame. Frame rest cutout is 5/8" deep and frame top bar ends are about 1/2".

Bee Curious · August 05, 2012, 06:44:18 PM

Quote from: ApalacheeRiverFarms on August 05, 2012, 05:23:22 PM
I was answering about the reason for the difference in sizes. Difference in hive height and frame height is bee space. Diff in frame height and foundation height is frame wood plus wiggle room. most boxes I've seen have a small space on top of the frames and 3/8" between the bottom of the frames and bottom of the box... Thus the 9-5/8 box and 9-1/8" frame. Frame rest cutout is 5/8" deep and frame top bar ends are about 1/2".

To add to my confusion, I notice Mann Lake's catalog says that their frame rest rabbet is 3/8" :idunno:

I guess I'll buy my boxes and frames from the same company to make sure things work correctly.

annette · August 05, 2012, 07:07:58 PM

I have found them to be a bit different but not so much that I cannot use them. Although I did purchase Walter Kelley frames that hung different in my Mann Lake supers and that was sort of strange.

I would advice you to purchase all from one company and not have any problems.

By the way, welcome to the forum as I just noticed you here. I really like your avatar photo of that flower.

Sincerely
Annette

Bee Curious · August 05, 2012, 07:26:40 PM

Thanks for the welcome, Annette. It's very easy to feel "at home" here, as everyone is so helpful.

The flower is a water lily. I volunteer at the Chicago Botanic Garden (so I can be near plants and not go crazy during our long grey winters) and I am always mesmerized by the water lilies.

kingbee · August 05, 2012, 08:40:35 PM

Quote from: Bee Curious on August 05, 2012, 06:44:18 PM... To add to my confusion, I notice Mann Lake's catalog says that their frame rest rabbet is 3/8"

Not to worry. I suspect that 3/8 of an inch is only the horizontal rabbet measurement. The vertical measurement should be or likely is 5/8 of an inch. Any box with this size frame rest (5/8 X 3/8) and that is also 9 5/8 inch tall overall will do fine with almost any new deep (9 1/8) frame made today. A peek at Barry's hive plans may help you understand the terms or concepts.

Intheswamp · August 05, 2012, 08:43:13 PM

All my frames have come from Kelley and my boxes from Rossman. I've had *very* little burr comb built between boxes. Not a bad match up. I have measured using these vendors merchandise and the bee space is pretty well spot on between box/frame units at 3/8". In case it makes a difference box/frame units were 8-frame mediums and the frames were wedge-top/bottom-groove.

Ed