Location of winter cluster

[Kris^]

It's been getting pretty cold here the last few nights, and it's down to 33 F already tonight.  The days are decent enough though.  I've been feeding the hives for the past two or three weeks with a top feeder that lets me look down through the top into the hive.  In all but one hive the bees have been clustering top center in the upper brood box.  I suspect that might be because of residual feed in the top feeders.  But a question for whoever has experience using top feeders in the fall:  will the cluster move down to the bottom brood box when I remove the feeders in another week or two, or should I then reverse the boxes?  I've only used a top feeder in the spring.  

They've all taken in at least 50 pounds of 2:1 syrup to top off the stores they had in the lower boxes, and they've started tapering off on their consumption.  They all "heft" pretty heavily, although I can't really accurate gauge their weight by tipping them, but I know I certainly couldn't lift any of them!

-- Kris

[Michael Bush]

I just make sure they've got stores.  They will move where they want.  ALL of mine are at the top rignt now.

[manowar422]

But a question for whoever has experience using top feeders in the fall: will the cluster move down to the bottom brood box when I remove the feeders in another week or two

I lack the experience to help with this one, but I would think they will
move down when the queen starts to lay eggs again.

or should I then reverse the boxes?

I hesitate to change (this late in the year) the location of stores
my bees have instinctively placed for their own winter survival.

[Horns Pure Honey]

Your bees should move down, they do know what they are doing. What ever you do do not reverse the boxes, only do that in spring. :D

[Kris^]

As I searched the forum, I think I asked a similar question last year, and got similar answers.  I'll learn yet!  Anyhow, it's been getting very cold here at nights, and staying cold during the days.  The bees haven't been clustering in the top feeders as much, and they haven't been taking the remaining syrup.  So I guess it's time on the next warm day to put on the candy boards and wrap them up.  Sunday looks like it.  And then I spend the next few months rapping on the sides to hear if they're still buzzing.

Here's hoping that all of us up north get 'em through the winter!

-- Kristine

[bassman1977]

Here's hoping that all of us up north get 'em through the winter!

Fingers, toes, arm, and legs are crossed for us all.  This will be a cold one.[/list]

[Finsky]

Bees start their wintering  there where they had last brood.

It is not so wise to change heir order. They do not need human wisdom to their life. Bees have their instinct to put food in best way. What you should do is use insulated box on winter. It saves food 30% and let bees to move inside box because it is warmer.

Bees react trying to return their order. It makes vain work.

Normally when brood had emerged, bees collect winterfood from periferia and fill the combs in the middle.

I have had many times situation that in upper box I have new white frames and in lower one brown combs. They prefer to put food in lower box and less in upper.  - I have been worried but not a one have died for that reason.

[Finsky]

Here's hoping that all of us up north get 'em through the winter!

Fingers, toes, arm, and legs are crossed for us all.  This will be a cold one.[/list]

* To get colony over winter is one of the easiest  point in beekeeping.
   You just feed them at autumn.
*  Varroa is the second easy point. You just handle them with cure, what ever it is.

Dont be nervous :P

I keep 20% extra colonies over winter. I try to sleep in peace over the long winter like bear. I have done my best and what happens it happens. My hives are at the distance of 150 km from my city home. No need to worry.
.

[Kris^]

Yesterday I installed the emergency candy boards, put in upper entrances, placed styrofoam on top and wrapped them all in black paper.  When I pulled a few frames, they were all full of capped sugar honey.  Plenty of food and no varroa this year, and all of the hives still had plenty of bees.  I've done what I can and, like you say Finsky, what happens will happen.   :)

-- Kris

[Michael Bush]

>no varroa this year

If you're finding no varroa, you're not looking hard enough.  They are there.  The question is how many and you can't answer that if you aren't finding them.

[Kris^]

Maybe.  But I didn't find any in all the drone comb I opened up this year, and didn't see any on the screened bottom pullouts.  They're very few, if they're there.  I did see hive beetles, though.  Last year I had no trouble finding varroa -- the infected drone, the deformed wings,  etc.  The apistan cleared it out, though, and the hive wintered well.

But . . . would it be too late now to vapor some oxalic into the hives?  As a preventive measure?  Or just leave it alone?

-- Kris

[bassman1977]

Between my two hives and four from another beekeeper's hives, we went through each one for about an hour each, searching bees for varroa.  Out of the 6 hives, we only found one mite in four of them.  We never did do a test with a sticky board to get a better count, but I'm chancing it.  I got too busy during the end of the season and wasn't able to do any mite preventative maintenance.

[Michael Bush]

A sticky board or a sugar roll should give you an idea of a quantity.  I don't believe in "preventative maintenance".  If they don't have mites then don't subject them to treatments.  Anything that kills mites hurts bees.

[Finsky]

Lucky you! If you do not see signs about varroa, you may leave one year's handling away. They are some still there.

"Anything that kills mites hurts bees." You cannot be serius Michael. It depens how you use cures. There is no signs that oxalic acid dribling kills bees or queens. It is tested many times. Our beekeeping teachers and researsher test every autum does handling cause any symtons.

We do not use powder sugar at all in Finland and hives are going very well. No troubles we may say. The case is different if brood are year around.  


But everybody shoose his way to nurse bees. There are many alternatives.

[Michael Bush]

Yes, I'm serious.  The people who are vaporizing Oxalic say that you can't dribble it more than once without noticably shortening the life of the workers.  I suppose you could argue that powdered sugar doesn't hurt the bees but it also doesn't kill the mites, it just dislodges them and it does disruput the hive.  Apistan is worse than the Oxalic and Check mite is almost fatal to the bees.  I can't say I've noticed any problem with the Oxalic acid vapor, but I'm sure if it kills the mites it's harming the bees.  You are doing something lethal to the mites and trying to keep it sublethal for the bees.  That's always going to hurt the bees.

[Finsky]

You are doing something lethal to the mites and trying to keep it sublethal for the bees.  That's always going to hurt the bees.

No matter. Bees go over winter and they die soon during couple of weeks when they start to gather pollen from willow. New bees emerge in  hive during one month from start of willow flovering.  I have not seen  trouples in that case.  Queens go well and hives gather  160 pound honey per hive. What else you can do? It is flowers which order the yield.

Don't strain your eyes with  staring at one point. As I have said, I have no problems with varroa.
..
.

[imabkpr]

A sticky board or a sugar roll should give you an idea of a quantity.  I don't believe in "preventative maintenance".  If they don't have mites then don't subject them to treatments.  Anything that kills mites hurts bees.

I have been using vinegar vapor for the past 13+ years to control varoa and all other in hive pests. It does a great job of killing varoa without hurting the queen or worker bees.   I also believe what you say Michael, about vaporizing oxalic. I also believe in preventative maintenance, this is done through the use of vinegar and a vaporizer. cef

[Michael Bush]

>I have no problems with varroa.

Me neither.

[Kris^]

Thanks for the comments.  This discussion is somewhat more than just academic for me now.  This evening I notice that a couple hives had dragged out their dead and dying onto the landing boards, so I scaped up about 2 dozen and brought them inside to look at under a magnifying glass.  I dumped the bees and debis on a sheet of white paper and looked -- and found three dead mites.  

So I bought some wood bleach and we fashioned a simple evaporator out of flexible copper tubing.  I'll pipe it in during daylight, tomorrow or Thursday.

Can anyone tell how many teaspoons is 1.5 grams?

-- Kris

[Finsky]

So I bought some wood bleach and we fashioned a simple evaporator out of flexible copper tubing.  I'll pipe it in during daylight, tomorrow or Thursday.

That vinegar acid is interesting.

But why don't you use trickling? It is just suitable when bees are in winterball. It is really easy.
http://beemaster.com/beebbs/viewtopic.php?t=3761

Michael said: "Oxalic acid vapor is not very dependant on temperatures. Not any more than trickling. I wouldn't want to trickle when it's cold and the bees are clustered ..".

Michaele does not know the sytem and don't listen to him in this matter. :P

To morrow I go to my summer cottage and give the cure. Temperature is here  35-40F. It is just fine.