Hope new hive-raised queen works, or order a new one?

[tjc1]

This is a follow-up to two previous posts:

Found my old queen dead on May 1, and found swarm/emergency cells, three uncapped and one capped;
- May 5, 5 capped queen cells on frame edges and one on frame face - three are developing brown ends
- May 14, hear piping in the hive
- May 18, at least one queen cell open
- May 19, find another dead queen
- May 27 - hoped to find eggs/larvae today, but no luck - but I do see a smallish queen wandering around unattended (see photo)

I've run the numbers using Michael Bush's indications, and it seems to me that I should have had a laying queen by now, so my question is, should I hope that this queen will get mated/going or should I not risk further waiting and order a replacement - I don't want to wait until it's too late!  Thanks!

[10framer]

give it 2 or 3 more days.

[Kathyp]

i'd give her another couple of days too.  size is not a big thing and she'll most likely get bigger...and she may not be the only one in there. 

how good are you at seeing eggs anyway?

[tjc1]

Sheepish admission - I can NEVER see them unless they turn up in a photo... Really, I was hoping to see hatched eggs/larvae... you know, something VISIBLE  ;) Thanks for the advice/encouragement to hang in and wait a bit longer!

[10framer]

judging by the length of the abdomen of the queen in the picture she appears to have mated.  virgins are usually not so elongated.  after a few days she'll start to build up some girth and then you'll start seeing eggs everywhere. 

[hardwood]

Too early. Takes at least a week (more likely 10 days or so) before the virgin even goes on mating flights. It might take another several days for her to finish her mating routines depending on weather. Once mated it might take another week before she starts to lay strong and consistently. I never even look into my mating hives for 3 weeks.

Scott

[Michael Bush]

> May 5, 5 capped queen cells on frame edges and one on frame face - three are developing brown ends
- May 14, hear piping in the hive

Sounds like they emerged on the 14th or thereabouts.

>- May 18, at least one queen cell open

Now we know one has emerged.

>- May 19, find another dead queen

And she killed one of her rivals.

>- May 27 - hoped to find eggs/larvae today, but no luck - but I do see
a smallish queen wandering around unattended (see photo)

Sounds like a virgin.  We were sure you had an emerged queen on the 18th.  You need to weeks for her to likely get mated (three weeks at the outside) so that's between the 1st of June and the 8th of June.

[tjc1]

Thanks for the help, everyone. Actually, I was going to ask the question whether queens ever have difficulty getting mated, in regards to finding drones from other hives. I know there are some hives about a mile an a half away from me, and that they are amazing at finding each other - Michael, you seem to be indicating that it can indeed take some time.

[Michael Bush]

> I was going to ask the question whether queens ever have difficulty getting mated, in regards to finding drones from other hives.

When it's too early, yes, or when the weather is consistently bad for several weeks, yes.

>Michael, you seem to be indicating that it can indeed take some time.

It can take as long as three weeks.  Longer than that, and you get a drone layer.

[Jim134]

tjc1.....

    This may help you

http://www.thebeeyard.org/cgi-bin/queencalendar.pl?month=4&day=30&year=2013



                     BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[tjc1]

Great layout of the process, Jim, thanks!

Ted

[tjc1]

Eureka! We have eggs! I would guess that they range here from 0 to 3 days old, meaning she started laying on about May 30.

Here's a question, though - will I still have any nurse bees left by the time these hatch out in three weeks to take up that task?  Would it be wise to take a frame of capped brood from my new package (which is booming along) to bolster this hive? And if the answer is yes, can a frame of brood survive a 40 minute trip in a nuc box (distance of the two hives from one another)?

[JWChesnut]

Yes, you are going to need to add hatching workers to keep the hive fresh.
I've made longer trips. I use a cheap styrofoam icechest and well-heated large burrito for warmth/humidity.   You get to the yard, place the frame and eat the burrito, satisfied with a job well done.

Sounds like these are already in a 10 frame hive-- you likely have room to add a frame a week for 2-3 weeks. Two is likely all your other hive could support as sole donor. 

How many frames is the hive covering.  Lift the lid and look for bees on the top bar.  No need to lift frames and disturb the delicate hive.
Make sure the queen isn't laying into the frames you pull out to make room for the supplemental capped brood.  (adding a follower on your next visit shrinks the hive into an easier to manage nuc, and allows you to add frames without taking out existing.)

[tjc1]

Thanks, JW - there are still lots of bees in the hive, though fewer than last inspection. They are covering /working about 8 of 10 frames in the top deep, and have nectar/capped honey on 9 of 10 frames in the super. In the bottom deep, they are storing mostly pollen on two or three of the frames. Is there a way to tell which capped brood in the donor hive is closest to emerging (other than having kept track of when a frame had open larvae earlier on)?

[JWChesnut]

You have a substantial hive.  I was under the impression this was a single deep, first year.   

The queen usually lays in a spiral pattern out from the center over multiple days.  If the frame is filled with brood you are likely 5+ days into the 13 day capped brood period.  You can prick out a pupa or two and look for darkening of the head, and appearance of hair. 
This image shows an array of development.
http://www.arkive.org/honey-bee/apis-mellifera/image-A8703.html

[HomeSteadDreamer]

I have found the really dark ones are closest to emerging.  I also find if I am inspecting near mid-day I can often see a bee actually chewing the wax cap away to emerge. 

[Michael Bush]

>will I still have any nurse bees left by the time these hatch out in three weeks to take up that task?

By the time they are four days old any bee can do any job in the hive, including nurse bees, wax makers etc.  They may not be as efficient at it, but they can do it.

http://bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Old%20Bees%20Good%20Nurses

[tjc1]

Actually, the more I think about it, will I have many bees left by the time these hatch? If the last eggs laid by the old queen were on April 30, and this new queen's first hatch will be about June 20, I would think that numbers will be awfully low by then.