Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?

[karen in NH]

I have been studying JP beeman's videos online of his swarm and cutouts of feral colonies. From what I see, the cutout colonies build fresh comb downward sometimes as long as 5 or 6 feet. I have also devoured all the the reading material I can about beekeeping in hive boxes. "bees always build up so add more space to the top". Could someone clarify nature vs Langstroth?

[merince]

All bees build down - meaning they start at the top of the frame (or the top of the cavity) and then build down. This is why when starting a new package, you give them one box at a time and you only add the new box when the current one is about 80% done. Otherwise, the bees will "chimney" up to the top.

However, beekeepers have found out that bees like to store honey above the brood nest. Empty space above the brood nest needs to be filled with stores. Having a continually expanding empty space above the brood nest keeps hived bees busy filling it up. That's why it looks like hived bees build up. The reality is that their cavity keeps growing up. But the bees like to draw comb from the top bar down.

[10framer]

All bees build down - meaning they start at the top of the frame (or the top of the cavity) and then build down. This is why when starting a new package, you give them one box at a time and you only add the new box when the current one is about 80% done. Otherwise, the bees will "chimney" up to the top.

However, beekeepers have found out that bees like to store honey above the brood nest. Empty space above the brood nest needs to be filled with stores. Having a continually expanding empty space above the brood nest keeps hived bees busy filling it up. That's why it looks like hived bees build up. The reality is that their cavity keeps growing up. But the bees like to draw comb from the top bar down.

that covers it pretty well.  bees build down in nature.

[Kathyp]

"bees always build up so add more space to the top". Could someone clarify nature vs Langstroth?

well covered above, but good for you for your observation!!!

[splitrock]

Adding and taking away boxes from the bottom of the stack would really turn this thing we love into some hard and heavy work too!

[bernsad]

Adding and taking away boxes from the bottom of the stack would really turn this thing we love into some hard and heavy work too!

I think that is the management practice for Warre hives; adding and removing boxes from the bottom to better replicate the natural behaviour of continually building comb downwards.

[Jim134]

karen in NH........
   I see by a location you are hopelessly lost.  If you live in New Hampshire this may help you out.

http://www.nhbeekeepers.org/

NEW HAMPSHIRE STATE BKPRS ASSOC
Bow, NH
http://www.nhbeekeepers.org

PTUCKAWAY BKPRS ASSOCAW
Candia, NH
http://www.pawtuckawaybeekeepers.org

SEACOAST BKPRS ASSOC
Lee, NH
http://www.seacoastbeekeepers.com

I also know The Monadnock Beekeepers' Association
http://www.monadnockbeekeepers.com/


  I do know you will find more links for local associations in New Hampshire on the state website. And yes I do live in New Hampshire the most south western part of the state you can go near the Connecticut River (maybe a 1mi to the west) and also bordered by two states.



                    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[Kathyp]

brood boxes under.  honey supers over.  no brood box swapping!!   :-D

[Joe D]

Welcome to the forum, Karen.  As you see if you ask a question someone will get you an answer. 
What is something to see is the chains that the bees make from the top of the frames down on foundationless frames as they build the comb.  Good luck to you and your bees.




Joe

[karen in NH]

Jim 134, I do belong to NHBA, Pawtuckaway and Capital here in NH, but nobody has the experience removing the really old cutouts that are on JP Beeman's youtube videos, thus never seeing these combs of such size.

I feel we can learn so much about the genetics of these bees that have survived for so long in a wall without surcoming to verroa, virus and natural swarming. The comb building is a beautiful thing in nature.

Joe D, I will try some foundationless frames this spring to see the chains you are referring to.

Kathyp, "no brood box swapping" do you mean that you should not reverse the 2 deep brood boxes in the Spring when the bottom deep is empty so that you are creating space UP?

[Kathyp]

there are always exceptions, but generally you should never need to move more than a frame or two and that, not to often. 

as the bees store honey, they move down.  in fall and winter, they eat their way up.  they should naturally end up toward the top and then they start over.  people get hasty or do not realize that the number of bees is to small to cover the space and they swap boxes to "move the bees up".  all that does is break up the brood nest, and if you are inexperienced and put honey in the middle, you mess them up until they can eat or move what you have misplaced.

generally, if you find your bees in the bottom and an empty box above, they have to much room in the first place.  if you find the bottom box is crowed and they won't move up...and that happens sometimes, you need only move a couple of frames of brood up and the bees will be encouraged to go with the brood.  much easier and much less disruptive.

[Jim134]

Jim 134, I do belong to NHBA, Pawtuckaway and Capital here in NH, but nobody has the experience removing the really old cutouts that are on JP Beeman's youtube videos, thus never seeing these combs of such size.

I feel we can learn so much about the genetics of these bees that have survived for so long in a wall without surcoming to verroa, virus and natural swarming. The comb building is a beautiful thing in nature.

Joe D, I will try some foundationless frames this spring to see the chains you are referring to.

Kathyp, "no brood box swapping" do you mean that you should not reverse the 2 deep brood boxes in the Spring when the bottom deep is empty so that you are creating space UP?

Honey Bees Festoon(ing)

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0oG7mCOArVSkgwA7ahXNyoA?p=festooning+bees&fr=yfp-t-900&fr2=piv-web



             BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[Brother Dave]

I might try adding an empty box under the full one next year to see what happens. Since I am using foundation-less frames it might work out better in my situation. I would expect the brood nest to migrate to the lower box as time goes on. I will think about it I have a few months to plan before spring comes.

[tjc1]

Last May I added an empty deep below, thinking that a) it would keep the bees and their heat in the same place while it was still chilly and b) that they would prefer to build down. They had a super above the brood deep from the winter, and they never moved down, other than to just hang out. They did lose the queen in May and had to requeen, but they seemed pretty numerous over the summer, yet still they never drew any comb in the lower deep. I'm glad I read this thread, as I was thinking that this spring perhaps I should do the reverse and put the empty deep on top.

[GSF]

Mine was a three pound package that I received Jun 3rd. It could have just been the timing but they didn't build down in the empty super on the bottom. Not long after I placed it on top they began to build.

[T Beek]

I might try adding an empty box under the full one next year to see what happens. Since I am using foundation-less frames it might work out better in my situation. I would expect the brood nest to migrate to the lower box as time goes on. I will think about it I have a few months to plan before spring comes.

Better results can be found by taking a few 'brood' frames as suggested from the 'assumed' packed brood box and placing them alternately between empties whichever direction 'you' want your bees to expand to.  Below 'or' above (or to the sides if using TBH or Long Hives) matter only to you, the beek, and your intentions.  

Simply leaving an 'empty box' (ESPECIALLY Foundationless) without also providing some guidance, either empty drawn comb, foundation or (preferably) brood filled comb, will cause you and your bees grief in very short order.  

I've been using foundationless frames since 2007.  The first lesson learned teaches us that failing to provide proper guidance allows bees to do 'their' thing which usually opposes 'your' thing.   :-D  Understanding honeybees natural tendencies can make life more enjoyable for both human and bee. :)

[Robo]

I might try adding an empty box under the full one next year to see what happens. Since I am using foundation-less frames it might work out better in my situation. I would expect the brood nest to migrate to the lower box as time goes on. I will think about it I have a few months to plan before spring comes.

This is how Warre' hives are managed and it works well.

[Robo]

Do feral bees build down and hived bees build up?

Excellent question.    Here is another one to ponder.

Why do beekeepers think providing ventilation is so important when feral colonies seal up the entire cavity except the entrance?

[iddee]

""Why do beekeepers think providing ventilation is so important when feral colonies seal up the entire cavity except the entrance?""


Because man made ceilings are flat and allow condensation to drip on the cluster.

Natural feral hive ceilings are not flat and allow the drops to roll down the sides.

[Robo]

""Why do beekeepers think providing ventilation is so important when feral colonies seal up the entire cavity except the entrance?""


Because man made ceilings are flat and allow condensation to drip on the cluster.

Natural feral hive ceilings are not flat and allow the drops to roll down the sides.

The ones in trees, yes.

But the ones I have seen in walls of building, gas tanks, etc all had flat ceilings.   Condensation can easily be dealt with by making sure the highest insulated value is on top. Condensation then happens on the walls.  Much better solution than upper ventilation.  You wouldn't leave a window open upstairs in your house ;-)