A small rant about a little loss of faith...

AliciaH · June 08, 2014, 02:53:17 PM

I started with bees eight years ago and, lo and behold, fell in love with an insect. Three seasons ago, I opened my supply store. My vision was, and is, that it will be the backyard beekeepers of the world that save the honey bee. Why? We remove variables like migration and exposure to pesticides that those migrations encounter. We are able to observe our hives better on a one-to-one basis because we have fewer. There are other reasons, but those are enough for now.

Do we need our commercial side? Heck, yea! It's how we feed our nation, and a few others besides! But the fact that we've pushed our bees into a corner and are losing them is not lost on anyone anymore. I'm not pointing a finger in that direction. We all have a hand in that system, right down to the individuals to demand "quality" produce that cannot be supplied without that level of pollination or chemical interference. But that's not what this is about...

We have huge mating yards to supply thousands and thousands of new queens every season. Yet we complain about the quality mating of those queens and how they don't last as long as they used to. Bees are fed extraordinary amounts of food over the winter to guarantee that the hives can be split and sold early in the spring. Yet we complain that our bees can't survive winter without extra food, or that they take too long to get ramped up in the following season. Somewhere along the line, the message isn't getting out that the way we've been doing it isn't working.

My crisis of faith comes from the uncharacteristic amount of conversation I've had with visitors to my little store this week, most revolving around the concept of "more". How quickly can I produce more bees? How can I make more honey? From a growing population that is getting into bees to save them, it still seems to be all about "more".

I have no answers, and this truly was just a rant about a little loss of faith. I still love what I do, I love my bees, I love working with the people coming in. I would love a bit of perspective here, though, so please feel free to slap me upside the head if you think that's what I need. Either way, it'll give me a new thought to think on.

Because right now, I think that if I hear one more person planning to off a perfectly good year-old queen after the summer solstice to better guarantee 100 pounds of honey off a single hive next season, I might just blow a head gasket.

Vance G · June 08, 2014, 03:07:23 PM

I hear your pain ma'am and can see little use of industrial requeening in hobbyist hives. The migratory people know where the marginal dollars are and probably need to go after them, but I sit in one spot and find it hard to pinch that perfectly good queen when the warm country replacement may not be a bit better and indeed 20% of them fail IME. So much better to take that proven winner queen and a few frames of brood out of that hive and per Mel Disselkoens OTS notch some cells and let the bee produce a half copy of the successful lady now laying another colony. Chances are she will be superceded and now you have young queens in two colonies going into winter.

I have no illusions about 'saving the bees'. I live in a hard dry land where bees can find no forage for most of eight months and feed and care are just necessary to keep my numbers or expand a little. I think you need to enjoy your time with the bees, help all and teach the few who will really listen. That is doing a lot of good right there and subsidizes your habit.

AliciaH · June 08, 2014, 04:38:03 PM

Thank you, Vance. It is the issue of requeening that put me on my soap box, I'll admit. I've been reading up on OTS and since it's just a step or two away from how I split my hives to keep swarming down, makes sense for me to try it. I, too, feed, to get the girls through. I suppose it's an issue of finding balance and really know what one's goals are.

When the majority of the teachers are commercial, then that is what they will teach. They need those methods for their industry to work, and that's just fine. I think it must be hard for some backyard beekeepers to understand that they aren't, and don't need to be, in competition with those numbers. Most, myself included, don't need 100 pounds per hive, or need to split every hive 3-4 ways in March to obtain sustained or mild growth. But then, that's my issue, isn't it -- it's not an aspect of the industry I feel a need to compete with? Some do like to shoot for those numbers, they enjoy the chase. So who am I to critique?

I must apologize, though. I was distracted enough to post in an area where the topic does not really apply. How can I get it moved to General Beekeeping?

jayj200 · June 14, 2014, 09:10:10 PM

Florida
got the message.
its money
as in follow the money
they are in the process of curling up to the backyard bee keeper

AliciaH · June 16, 2014, 12:09:33 PM

Jay, how so?

jayj200 · July 06, 2014, 10:59:58 AM

The state of Florida is re-thing their plans for the futher down the road. they used to develop programs just for the mammoth commercial bee keepers. those with more than 50 hives an acre. the commercial keepers are loosing numbers. my neighbors keeping more than me. the numbers tell the story

buzzbee · July 06, 2014, 03:54:24 PM

Quote from: AliciaH on June 08, 2014, 04:38:03 PM

I must apologize, though. I was distracted enough to post in an area where the topic does not really apply. How can I get it moved to General Beekeeping?

Just ask Alicia! :)

Jim134 · July 06, 2014, 10:38:33 PM

Quote from: jayj200 on June 14, 2014, 09:10:10 PM
Florida
got the message.
its money
as in follow the money
they are in the process of curling up to the backyard bee keeper

The last I know curling as a game played on ice with granite rocks and they did play this game in the 2014 Winter Olympics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curling

http://www.curlingrocks.net/USA-Curling

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

BlueBee · July 07, 2014, 12:46:41 AM

"More" can be a good thing, or a bad thing; depends a bit on the context. When I first started keeping bees I wanted "more" this and that because I wanted to help my bees, not my bank account. I only did things the "traditional way" for one season before setting out to improve my bees homes to be more efficient and productive in my climate. Maybe it was the way I was raised, but there's something about waste and inefficiency that rubs me the wrong way. So for me, "more" is about helping the bees be more efficient and productive with the resources that THEY have as opposed to enriching me. "More" is about getting the bees to thrive. Of coarse you probably know I get a lot of criticism around here for doing things differently. :laugh:

Sometimes it also helps to just say to yourself, 'beeks will be beeks"! Some battles just can't be won.

JackM · July 07, 2014, 09:22:57 AM

Alicia, I hear you. Myself, I do the whatever I can to prevent a swarm, but at the same time I want them to do things as close to undisturbed by human intervention as possible. If one can get a feral swarm and build from that, then the concept of more is good, as all the current forcing of genetics in all facets of biology is destroying diversity in the seeking of consistently 'more.' I had to do a split this summer, not because I wanted to, but because they built so huge I couldn't lift boxes any higher.....from a tiny feral swarm last year.

AliciaH · July 07, 2014, 12:31:31 PM

Yes, beekeeping is in the "eye of the bee holder", ha, ha...

I'm not against any beekeeping practice, per se. I just find my mind wondering these days about the inconsistencies between what I hear complaints about, and what we are teaching new beekeepers is "normal". Of course, I've only been with my bees for 8 years, so I don't have perspective, either, in what the bees looked like, acted like, or performed like beyond that time frame. So what do I know?

I know that we are awed by queens that lay wall-to-wall/top-to-bottom brood patterns, but then are amazed by the fact that the queens need to be replaced sooner rather than later because they don't (can't?) sustain that (a year, maybe?). Is that pattern even normal, from a history of beekeeping point of view? Or are we breeding that?

Also, I have had several hives, because of this awesome brood pattern, that stay brood heavy for long periods of time. Without a balance ratio between stores and brood, a sustained rainy stretch means the end of these hives without supplemental feeding. Yet we complain when bees don't survive the winter, or even the season? Or, if the colony slows its growth (brood-wise) in response to environmental conditions, the complaints follow that the hive is not thriving and the queen gets replaced. Was the hive truly not thriving? Or were they smart? Many will never have the answer to that question because the new normal dictates that that queen get replaced.

Like I stated, I don't have the history to really know what is "normal" and what is not. I just know that these are some of the thoughts and questions that haunt the back of my brain. Believe me, there are days when I'd like to tell those thoughts and questions to be quiet so I can go on with my day in peace, but they don't. So, it's on my winter research list, and I'd love input on the subject.

Michael Bush · July 07, 2014, 03:48:38 PM

When people are asking "how do I make the bees..." or "how early can I..." or "how many splits can I..." or "how late can I..." they are asking the wrong question... yet they ask them all the time... in fact they are probably the most common type of question...

Jim134 · July 07, 2014, 06:07:34 PM

:th_thumbsupup: X:X X:X X:X X:X X:X

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

divemaster1963 · July 07, 2014, 09:04:53 PM

I am with you.I come from a history of beekeeping that nature knows best. My uncle divided hives when he found queen cells. Most all of his hives were from feral colonies . all my hives are feral. Pessy most of the times and you can't go into the brood box without suit. They are treatment free and haveno vero problem .they aremore aaggressive but more healthy than package bees. I have people ask about getting bees and I ask them are they looking for longevity or sort term production?

John

AliciaH · July 10, 2014, 12:26:55 AM

Quote from: divemaster1963 on July 07, 2014, 09:04:53 PM
I have people ask about getting bees and I ask them are they looking for longevity or sort term production?

Ah, the heart of my dilemma!

Quote from: Michael Bush on July 07, 2014, 03:48:38 PM
When people are asking "how do I make the bees..." or "how early can I..." or "how many splits can I..." or "how late can I..." they are asking the wrong question... yet they ask them all the time... in fact they are probably the most common type of question...

Michael, my all-time favorite question..."How soon will the bees pay for themselves?" I am not too proud to admit that I lost my temper with that one.

Michael Bush · July 10, 2014, 10:25:50 AM

>Michael, my all-time favorite question..."How soon will the bees pay for themselves?" I am not too proud to admit that I lost my temper with that one.

From a business standpoint, though, it's a useful question, unfortunately bees are not a business, even if you intend to make a profit, it is agriculture and that is unpredictable.

Doolittle when asked about profitability of queen rearing said:

"At the outset, I shall undoubtedly be met by those inevitable "Yankee questions" - Does Queen-Rearing pay? Would it not pay me better to stick to honey-production, and buy the few queens which I need, as often as is required?

"I might answer, does it pay to kiss your wife? to look at anything beautiful? to like a golden Italian Queen? to eat apples or gooseberries? or anything else agreeable to our nature? is the gain in health, strength, and happiness, which this form of recreation secures, to be judged by the dollar-and-cent stand-point of the world?

"Can the pleasure which comes to one while looking at a beautiful Queen and her bees, which have been brought up to a high stand-point by their owner, be bought? Is the flavor of the honey that you have produced, or the keen enjoyment that you have had in producing it, to be had in the market?

"In nothing more than in Queen-Rearing, can we see the handiwork of Him who designed that we should be climbing up to the Celestial City, rather than groveling here with a "muck-rake" in our hands (as in "Pilgrim's Progress"), trying to rake in the pennies, to the neglect of that which is higher and more noble. There is something in working for better Queens which is elevating, and will lead one out of self, if we will only study it along the many lines of improvement which it suggests. I do not believe that all of life should be spent in looking after the "almighty dollar;" nor do I think that our first parents bustled out every morning, with the expression seen on so many beekeepers' faces, which seem to say, "Time is Money" The question, it seems to me, in regard to our pursuit in life, should not be altogether, "How much money is there in it?" but, "Shall we enjoy a little bit of Paradise this side of Jordan."--G.M. Doolittle, Scientific Queen Rearing

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm

AliciaH · July 11, 2014, 12:10:04 PM

It was a useful question, and she did had every right to ask. But as with everything else, context is everything. Thoughts to profit only, without regard to what it means to have an agricultural venture, was my problem at the time.

For the others that were with me that day, we walked through the numbers. It was actually pretty surprising to find that within a couple years of getting 2 mediums of honey per hive, you could make back all you had invested....in a perfect world. Perfect weather, no losses, not having to replace queens, actually getting a minimum of 2 mediums (of honey) per hive, keeping to a set number of hives, etc., etc., etc. Any or all of those things stretch out that time line.

And, as we all know, those variables do happen, it's part of the beekeeping adventure. But knowing it can be done is fun, and reassuring, too. Not many hobbies can offer that.

Quote from: Michael Bush on July 10, 2014, 10:25:50 AM
"Can the pleasure which comes to one while looking at a beautiful Queen and her bees, which have been brought up to a high stand-point by their owner, be bought? Is the flavor of the honey that you have produced, or the keen enjoyment that you have had in producing it, to be had in the market?http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm

That is a beautiful quote. I think I'll have it painted on my wall. :)

Santa Caras · July 11, 2014, 05:16:32 PM

I'm a first year beekeeper and I'm ALREADY tired of the questions..."When ya gonna get honey? When? When? When?"
My reply is I already have honey in my cabinets from the Farmers Market two years ago so really dont need any. Well When? When? When?
It's like wanting steak and buying a calf. I need to wait a couple years till they're ready and have grown. I tell them I'm not doing this for product. I find Honeybees interesting, it keeps me busy and off the couch, I meet new friends in clubs and apiaries, and I learn something new almost everyday. I must be getting old cuz people are really starting to irritate me! :-x

GSF · July 11, 2014, 10:17:56 PM

<When ya gonna get honey?>

I hear that a lot too. I've been telling them, "You can either make honey or bees, and this year I'm making bees."

Hops Brewster · July 14, 2014, 11:54:12 PM

It's my 1st year. I have one colony started with a 10 fr med nuc in late May. Running all mediums, I added a third brood box a week ago. I was told not to expect much first year, likely won't get much of a harvest, if any. That's fine. My major concern is raising a colony that will survive the winter on their own stores. But y'see, I want to know... I want to know how soon to split in the spring, how soon can I add a super, and how much honey might I expect, and probably a dozen other questions that might seem like I'm impatient and only want to squeeze my bees for everything they produce, when in reality, I just want to know. I want to learn. So I ask questions.

The question I get asked most by experienced beeks is "why only one hive? don't you know you should start with 2 or more?" My algebra teacher once exclaimed in front of the whole class, "there is no stupid question... except the one you are about to ask", while looking at me. I have one hive, and it seems healthy and happy. It is in this condition because I asked the stupid questions and made the answers fit my situation. So if I ask you "How can I make more bees? or how much honey will I get?", it is because I am still eager to learn, even after my algebra teacher tried to kill my curiosity over 40 years ago. I just hate going to classes.