NEED HELP

robinh · July 21, 2014, 10:45:25 PM

I have a fairly new hive that I started with a package May 30TH.The bees have really been doing good. I have them in 2, 8 frame meds.I have been feeding them since day 1 with 1-1 SS and HBH.Today I came home and the ground around the hive was moving with around a 100 or so bees.The bees would try to fly but only go a foot or so before falling back down.Some would be in groups of 3 to 5 or so kinda huddled together.There is spotty yellow diarhea on the ground also.The last couple of days they have really been bringing in a lot of pollen and it has been pretty close to the same color as the diarhea (yellow mustard color)I haven't noticed any V mites, although I haven't got a sticky board to do a count,I do have a SBB.I have had some SHBs but not enough to stress the bees.I do live close to some cotton fields that are starting to bloom ,but there could be other crops since I am in a very rurual area.Any help is appreciated.

richter1978 · July 21, 2014, 11:03:55 PM

Pesticides?

Steel Tiger · July 21, 2014, 11:42:54 PM

Maybe you should stop feeding them.
I would guess that that's the cause, along with the bees that came in the package dying off.

BeeMaster2 · July 21, 2014, 11:54:41 PM

Ditto about feeding.
Sugar water is not the same as nectar. It makes a honey with a pH around 6.5 compared to 4 for natural honey. The antibiotics that bees put in their honey needs the low pH. The young need the antibiotics to help protect them.
Try removing the feed. Do you have a flow on?
Jim

BeeMaster2 · July 22, 2014, 12:01:16 AM

Bee culture recently sent out an email about a study about feeding sugar water and the problems it can cause because it is not the same. It was on my work email and I did not save it. Sorry.
Jim

Vance G · July 22, 2014, 12:01:52 AM

Feeding what you described has never killed or paralysed a bee in my experience. I think it is safe to say that is not the problem. I would worry more about pesticides applied to the cotton as what you describe sounds like poisoning. Can you talk to the farmer and try to get a handle on what and when he sprays so you can tent in your hives when he is applying pesticides? He probably doesn't even know you exist.

Just stop feeding before you put any supers on. You could accidentally get some honey from the cotton blooms.

Joe Moore · July 22, 2014, 12:05:09 AM

Make sure when you do feed that it is pure cane sugar and not beet sugar (makes up about 40% of the U.S. market). Beet sugar will give them diarrhea. Not sure on the stop feeding subject, if you do there should be plenty of food to go around as long as your area is not in drought. My guess would be pesticides as well, a lot of people are spraying for mosquito and "doctoring" their flowers this time of year.

BeeMaster2 · July 22, 2014, 12:19:10 AM

Why are you feeding?
Is there capped honey in the hive, how much?
Is there a flow on? If so stop feeding.
Jim

Kathyp · July 22, 2014, 12:53:14 AM

100 bees is not many. if they are coming in loaded, they are wearing out their wings and going outside to die.

none of what you say makes any difference if you can't tell us what is inside the hive. how much room, stores, dead bees on the bottom board, etc. a few bees outside on the ground means nothing.

10framer · July 22, 2014, 09:18:54 AM

this sounds like nosema.

robinh · July 22, 2014, 09:49:53 AM

I am feeding to get 3 meds. on foundation built out before winter.The hive consist of 2 med. 8 frames ,bottom 80% full and the top about 40%.I am feeding cane sugar.No dead bees seen around or in hive just the wandering bees outside with the diarhea .Like I said this is a fairly new hive that I want to get built up ,(that was started on all foundation) before winter is here.The thing is some say feed a new package the whole first year and some say don't.Thanks guys for any and all help.

Steel Tiger · July 22, 2014, 10:37:23 AM

I fed my package for a week. After that, they were left to gather their own food. They build the comb fast enough to suit them. The best way to get them to draw out comb faster is to put undrawn frames in the middle of the brood.
I added a deep with 10 foundationless frames to one of my hives about 4 weeks ago. I checkerboard the frames with the brood so that each deep had 5 drawn and 5 undrawn frames alternating between drawn and undrawn. All 10 empty frames are now drawn out and have brood.
Next week I'll be splitting that hive, adding three more deeps and 30 empty frames. (4 or 5 frames of brood will be coming from another hive). I'm pretty sure that the splits will be at full strength by the end of August, with all frames drawn out.

OldMech · July 22, 2014, 10:39:47 AM

Really? The syrup? If it is contaminated syrup I suppose I could see my way to believing that.. Most people do not add pesticides or other toxic things to their syrup though..

Honey actually contains the same basic sugar units as table sugar. Both contain glucose and fructose. Granulated table sugar, or sucrose, has glucose and fructose hooked together, whereas in honey, fructose and glucose remain in individual units. Fructose is sweeter than glucose, which is one of the reasons fructose is used in so many food products today. However, fructose does not convert to energy as efficiently as glucose. Saying sugar is not good for the bees is like saying bread and butter is not good for people.. If that is all you eat for months on end, your exactly right, you will not be exceptionally healthy. The difference is that the bees WILL be bringing in their pollen and they will also be bringing in natural nectar, so the fact is, that feeding while they build comb is adding to what they get naturally, and the comb will get drawn out faster.. NO, I am not arguing that honey is better for bees than sugar, I never will, but supplemental feeding is also NOT going to cause problems like the OP is seeing.

Without being there, or having the bees tested, I am also going to guess they mayhave gotten into some pesticides. A neighbors garden? Depending on what it was and how much, it can disorient them, and you will find them crawling about as you said. I would keep a close eye on that and any other hives you have, and would, in fact supplement them even more with syrup and HBH if you do not have supers on in hopes of keeping them occupied while the pesticide disperses. Usually a week of feeding is enough, or if it rains to wash it off or away..
Spotting could also be Nosema, if you have Fumadil B adding that to the syrup you are feeding may be of aid. But Nosema is usually a bigger problem when the bees are confined during winter and early spring. What you are speaking of sounds very much like they have gotten into something they didnt want to/shouldn't have.

OldMech · July 22, 2014, 10:43:36 AM

Quote from: OldMech on July 22, 2014, 10:39:47 AM
Really? The syrup? If it is contaminated syrup I suppose I could see my way to believing that.. Most people do not add pesticides or other toxic things to their syrup though..

Honey actually contains the same basic sugar units as table sugar. Both contain glucose and fructose. Granulated table sugar, or sucrose, has glucose and fructose hooked together, whereas in honey, fructose and glucose remain in individual units. Fructose is sweeter than glucose, which is one of the reasons fructose is used in so many food products today. However, fructose does not convert to energy as efficiently as glucose. Saying sugar is not good for the bees is like saying bread and butter is not good for people.. If that is all you eat for months on end, your exactly right, you will not be exceptionally healthy. The difference is that the bees WILL be bringing in their pollen and they will also be bringing in natural nectar, so the fact is, that feeding while they build comb is adding to what they get naturally, and the comb will get drawn out faster.. NO, I am not arguing that honey is better for bees than sugar, I never will, but supplemental feeding is also NOT going to cause problems like the OP is seeing.

Without being there, or having the bees tested, I am also going to guess they mayhave gotten into some pesticides. A neighbors garden? Depending on what it was and how much, it can disorient them, and you will find them crawling about as you said. I would keep a close eye on that and any other hives you have, and would, in fact supplement them even more with syrup and HBH if you do not have supers on in hopes of keeping them occupied while the pesticide disperses. Usually a week of feeding is enough, or if it rains to wash it off or away..
Spotting could also be Nosema, if you have Fumadil B adding that to the syrup you are feeding may be of aid. But Nosema is usually a bigger problem when the bees are confined during winter and early spring. What you are speaking of sounds very much like they have gotten into something they didnt want to/shouldn't have.

Putting un drawn foundation into the MIDDLE of a brood nest on a weak colony is asking for trouble. If it is a foundation-less frame you are at least not creating a barrier, but the bees will not have an easy time keeping ALL of the brood warm if you split them. If there are a lot of bees you might get away with it.

Steel Tiger · July 22, 2014, 10:50:39 AM

Quote from: OldMech on July 22, 2014, 10:39:47 AM
Really? The syrup? If it is contaminated syrup I suppose I could see my way to believing that.. Most people do not add pesticides or other toxic things to their syrup though..

Honey actually contains the same basic sugar units as table sugar. Both contain glucose and fructose. Granulated table sugar, or sucrose, has glucose and fructose hooked together, whereas in honey, fructose and glucose remain in individual units. Fructose is sweeter than glucose, which is one of the reasons fructose is used in so many food products today. However, fructose does not convert to energy as efficiently as glucose. Saying sugar is not good for the bees is like saying bread and butter is not good for people.. If that is all you eat for months on end, your exactly right, you will not be exceptionally healthy. The difference is that the bees WILL be bringing in their pollen and they will also be bringing in natural nectar, so the fact is, that feeding while they build comb is adding to what they get naturally, and the comb will get drawn out faster.. NO, I am not arguing that honey is better for bees than sugar, I never will, but supplemental feeding is also NOT going to cause problems like the OP is seeing.

Without being there, or having the bees tested, I am also going to guess they mayhave gotten into some pesticides. A neighbors garden? Depending on what it was and how much, it can disorient them, and you will find them crawling about as you said. I would keep a close eye on that and any other hives you have, and would, in fact supplement them even more with syrup and HBH if you do not have supers on in hopes of keeping them occupied while the pesticide disperses. Usually a week of feeding is enough, or if it rains to wash it off or away..
Spotting could also be Nosema, if you have Fumadil B adding that to the syrup you are feeding may be of aid. But Nosema is usually a bigger problem when the bees are confined during winter and early spring. What you are speaking of sounds very much like they have gotten into something they didnt want to/shouldn't have.

It's not just the sugar, it's the water as well. If using tap water to make the syrup, there could be chemicals in the water that'll harm bees, as well raising the ph. I have well water. Although I don't have to worry about chemicals, my water's ph is above 7.0. If I had to feed my bees more than a quart, I'll buy bottle water.

OldMech · July 22, 2014, 10:57:47 AM

If you can drink your water the bees can as well. In fact they often prefer water you wouldn't touch. 20 + years of giving bees town water, and about three of giving them our well water and I have never had an issue.. Noting the bees gathered around the outlet of the septic line, when they have three ponds, A creek, horse and cattle water tanks MUCH closer to their hives will make you go... eeewwwwww but bees will be bees.

robinh · July 22, 2014, 01:17:05 PM

I don't plan on supering this year only trying to get the hive built up to 3 mediums before winter.I am on a well, maybe I do need to get the ph checked.I also have a pecan orchard about a mile or so from me, I didn't even think that would be a problem until another beek told me that pecan trees get sprayed this time of year. :idunno:
thanks again for all the help.

robinh · July 23, 2014, 06:06:56 PM

All seems to be well now.No bees on the ground and they all seem to be working fine. No signs of diarrhea.We had a good rain so hopefully that helped if pesticides were the culprit,Thanks for all the help. X:X

OldMech · July 23, 2014, 09:17:57 PM

Glad to hear it robin!

robinh · July 25, 2014, 03:44:19 PM

:? well shortly after posting this I arrived back home and bees again ,maybe a hundred or so ,on the ground around the hive crawling .No dead bees and this time no diarrhea,and like before they would fly but only a foot or so ,some a little farther.All these bees are young as far as I could tell.Is it possible that these are just young bees on their orientation flight that are just not quite ready for flight yet but came out with all the excitement? I have not found any of the bees dead on either occasion and both times by the next morning they are gone,I presume back in the hive.What do you think?