I'd like to Breed bees, but I need a little help from you guys and gals.

[ColeB234]

Hello folks, I am a sixteen year old Beekeeper who wants to start breeding bees next year up here in Western NY, I have a few Questions for anyone who has any experience breeding bees if you wouldn't mind answering for a beginner.

I currently only have one hive, they are Defensive Russians who over-produce propolis, and I hope to get them through a winter and then add their good properties (Disease-Resistance, Production of Honey, Adaptability to Nectar Availability, things like that) with Carniolan, Italian, and even Caucasian genetics. I hope I can get all of these traits together into one awesome bee, but I know a lot of people here have been trying the same thing for a while, and it would be awesome if some of you folks could help me out, I have nine questions which I would really like to have answered, so I hope you don't mind a little reading.

My First Question: What are some great places to get good bees? I have had some problems with this before, I am looking for Carniolans, Russians, Italians, and even Caucasians, I think the Cauci's will be the hardest to find because the Backyard Beekeeper book says they are the most seldom used, but hopefully someone out there knows someplace.

My Second Question: Is it best to use full-sized equipment or smaller equipment? I have had several mixed results from this particular Question, some breeders say the eight-frame medium supers are better, while others stick strictly to the Ten-frame Deeps.

My Third Question: Which Bee is best to focus on as a "base"? I was told that a breeder has to pick one strain of bees to make Queens from, while allowing the others to saturate the area with Drones.

My Fourth Question: Which would you folks pick for the "base" out of Defensive Russians, Carniolans, Italians that don't winter well, or Extremely Gentle yet over-propolizing Caucasians?

My Fifth Question: Would any of you even use a "base", or would you rather make Queens from all strains and allow them all to intermingle?

My Sixth Question: Would you allow Queens to free-mate or use a method of Artificial Insemination? I was told by an old Bee-breeder that a Virgin Queen left in a box with a glass-panel on one side with some Drones selected from good stock will initiate some form of Artificial Insemination, but that might just be urban legend.

My Seventh Question: Is grafting the best way to produce Queens, or should I allow them to produce their own Queens via swarm cells or Supersedure?

My Eighth Question: Should I put specialized Drone Frames in my hives or allow them to make Drone Cells wherever they please? I ask this Question mostly because I have heard that Drone's raised in Cells that weren't "planned" are more healthy and contain more Semen, probably a myth, but maybe someone out there can prove it true or false.

My Ninth and final Question: Do you use specialized hives such as Mating Nucs to rear Queens? I know that most breeders prefer Mating Nucs to larger hives because it's easier to control the Queen/Queen Cells, but some would like a larger hive because they can be split up using dividers and one hive can raise many Queens.

Thanks for any answers to any Questions folks, you guys are awesome and I hope you can help me.

[OldMech]

My First Question: What are some great places to get good bees? I have had some problems with this before, I am looking for Carniolans, Russians, Italians, and even Caucasians, I think the Cauci's will be the hardest to find because the Backyard Beekeeper book says they are the most seldom used, but hopefully someone out there knows someplace.

   My question would be WHY do you want to add all of these genetics? Are you going to try to get all of the best behavioral traits from them into one bee?
   I have Italians, Carniolans, Feral bees and Queens from VSH, MN Hygienic and survivor stock. They mix themselves all together when the queen is open mated. So it is difficult to select for specific traits with out a LOT of hives to select from. Artificial Insemination would at least allow you to select the drone/mothers.

My Second Question: Is it best to use full-sized equipment or smaller equipment? I have had several mixed results from this particular Question, some breeders say the eight-frame medium supers are better, while others stick strictly to the Ten-frame Deeps.

Equipment size is a personal preference.  I use ALL 10 frame medium boxes. I know beekeepers that use all 8 frame medium boxes. I know beekeepers who use Deeps, 8 and ten frame for brood chambers and mediums for supers.   I used to know a beekeeper that used ALL 10 frame deeps..  lifting a dozen 90 lb deeps of capped honey quickly cured him of that.
   I use all mediums because I want to be able to use a frame from a super in the brood area, or move brood up and around. I want to be able to put honey from supers on one hive to brood boxes on another hive if the bees are not fully stocked for winter. Versatility and simplicity. A medium super of capped honey is 60ish lbs. I can still lift that comfortably.   The folks who use 8 frame equipment claim that their bees use the space more efficiently and build up faster.  Like I said, it is all personal preference.

My Third Question: Which Bee is best to focus on as a "base"? I was told that a breeder has to pick one strain of bees to make Queens from, while allowing the others to saturate the area with Drones.

   It depends on what your goal is?  My suggestion would be bees that already have proven resistance and Hygienic behavior, that ALSO winter well in your area.. If you intend to sell them up north, then they should be suited to long cold winters.  These bees are already available if you do a little looking on the internet.

My Fourth Question: Which would you folks pick for the "base" out of Defensive Russians, Carniolans, Italians that don't winter well, or Extremely Gentle yet over-propolizing Caucasians?

  I have never had Caucasions or Russians, but I do really like my Carniolan and feral bees.  I have grave doubts of the "purity" of any claim to genetic lines. Typically if the quen is golden she is called Italian. If dark she is called a Canriolan etc etc..  Unless you get bees from a breeder who lives in an isolated location they will not be of pure strain. That does not mean they are bad bees. Most of my feral bees are tiger striped... They do well with resistances and with long cold winters. But are not as good resisting the mites as the VSH etc..   I recommend getting your bees, and spending a couple years evaluating them to see which you like best. Spend a few years learning the things you like and the things you do not. Pick the queens from the hives YOU like the best to do your grafting from, and start your program from there.

My Fifth Question: Would any of you even use a "base", or would you rather make Queens from all strains and allow them all to intermingle?

   They are going to do this anyhow unless you artificially inseminate the virgin queens. Other people will have hives, and there will be feral colonies somewhere nearby. The biggest problem with open mating is that in order to develop certain traits, you also have to develop those traits in the hives of the neighbors and feral colonies with YOUR drones. It takes time.  Which is why I suggested selecting bees that someone else has already done this with. IE VSH or MN Hygienic etc..

My Sixth Question: Would you allow Queens to free-mate or use a method of Artificial Insemination? I was told by an old Bee-breeder that a Virgin Queen left in a box with a glass-panel on one side with some Drones selected from good stock will initiate some form of Artificial Insemination, but that might just be urban legend.

I have never heard of that, and have my doubts a virgin would mate within an enclosed space. Maybe someone else can answer that with moe authority.  AI is a surefire method, but you need to keep some diversity or you will have problems in the long run.

My Seventh Question: Is grafting the best way to produce Queens, or should I allow them to produce their own Queens via swarm cells or Supersedure?

   I am not steady enough to graft. I have tried. i use Cell punch or an offshoot of OTS Queen rearing with good success so far. When YOU raise your own queens you can control some of the variables. Making a STRONG colony to build them insures those queens are WELL fed. I would not hesitate to use a swarm cell, but it is as much work inducing the hive YOU choose to raise them in to swarm WHEN you need the queens as it is to set up a starter and give them the Larvae that YOU chose. Getting them to raise the correct number of cells is also a guess. They may only raise four when you NEED ten.

My Eighth Question: Should I put specialized Drone Frames in my hives or allow them to make Drone Cells wherever they please? I ask this Question mostly because I have heard that Drone's raised in Cells that weren't "planned" are more healthy and contain more Semen, probably a myth, but maybe someone out there can prove it true or false.

I have not heard this one either.  I use mostly foundation-less medium frames. I let the bees decide how many to raise. In so doing my bees will raise more drones than any hive that their cell size is pre determined. Use plasticell or wax foundation, but drop in two or three frames of foundation-less and let them raise their own drones. They will!
   Drone frames may give you MORE drones if your trying to saturate the area. I have not use dthem so hopefully someone else will be more informative.

My Ninth and final Question: Do you use specialized hives such as Mating Nucs to rear Queens? I know that most breeders prefer Mating Nucs to larger hives because it's easier to control the Queen/Queen Cells, but some would like a larger hive because they can be split up using dividers and one hive can raise many Queens.

   I use 5 frame medium nucs. I like having a few more bees to support a new queen.  A good friend uses 3 frame mating nucs and he seems to do fine. I have considered queen castles and mini mating nucs, but decided to stick with standard equipment to save money, time, and frustration.


   I have to this point only raised 8 - 10 queens at a time, because that is all I needed. I will be ramping up the queen rearing next spring to keep up with my rapidly expanding apiary, AND to have some available to sell.  You can check out what and how I do it here;

http://outyard.weebly.com/queens.html

   Your already on the right path. Keep reading and asking questions. Don't take anything ONE person says as gospel.. IE; I use Cell punch, that does NOT mean you should as well. Look at what everyone does, then decide what you like the most and give it a try!  If you find you don't like it, then there are other avenues, methods and ideas from a lot of good folks to try as well.

   Hope that helps a little!

[jayj200]

Why do you like bees?
the way you talk this will be a life time arrangement!
do you stick with it when you start some thing?
your young now and nothing is settled, is this your parents farm?
how long do you expect to live there? can you?
do you have a girlfriend? does she like bees?
have you thought about marriage? 
when the bug strikes, nothing maters but the girl.
not even bees.

[ColeB234]

It does help, I'm glad you took the time to answer those Questions, let me answer a few in return.

I am probably going to cut out the Italians from the program, Russians produce more and are hardier in my experience anyhow, I used to have a load of Feral bees, Carni's and Russians, but I am down to one Russian hive this year due to me forgetting to put mice guards in, still kicking myself over that. I would like to combine the Caucasians extreme gentleness, the Carniolan/Mutts Hardiness/Disease Resistance, and the Russians production abilities, and hopefully make a name for myself in the Beekeeping community as a guy who's got good bees.

I'll probably stick to my current then, Ten Frame Deeps, they haven't done me wrong in four years yet.

Very likely I'll use the Carniolans then, they seem to be the best adapted to my area.

I have never tried to graft before, but I can already guess that I won't be steady enough to do it, I can't even pick up a drone with my bare hands without shaking, I suppose I'll try it with Natural Queen cells, probably another thing you won't have heard of, and I'm sorry for bringing up stuff that nobody knows about, but I heard that Supersedure cells are better fed than Swarm Cells.

I have tried foundation-less frames on all of the strains I want to work with, and they build loads of Burr Comb/bridge comb and make a mess, so I suppose I'll use the pre-made Drone Frames, that probably would be best for saturation anyhow.

I have a bunch of Jester Nuc boxes laying around, so I'll use those for my Rearing efforts.

Thanks for the link and the advice, I definitely won't take anyone's word for gospel, maybe other Beekeepers might have a method better suited for me, again, Thank You.

[ColeB234]

Well, I did want this to become my life actually, I love the little buggers, and I am assured I will always have land for them to work on.

As for the Girl, well, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

[Michael Bush]

>My First Question: What are some great places to get good bees?

Local mutts from swarm calls and cutouts.

>My Second Question: Is it best to use full-sized equipment or smaller equipment? I have had several mixed results from this particular Question, some breeders say the eight-frame medium supers are better, while others stick strictly to the Ten-frame Deeps.

Both work fine for the bees.  The lighter ones keep you from hurting yourself and allow you to standardize everything.  One eight frame medium box is the same volume as one five frame deep.

>My Third Question: Which Bee is best to focus on as a "base"? I was told that a breeder has to pick one strain of bees to make Queens from, while allowing the others to saturate the area with Drones.

I would get some mutts and allow them to breed with the mutts...

>My Fourth Question: Which would you folks pick for the "base" out of Defensive Russians, Carniolans, Italians that don't winter well, or Extremely Gentle yet over-propolizing Caucasians?

I just want bees that are healthy, productive and gentle.  I don't care if they do or do not propolize.  Mean bees aren't any better at surviving nor are they more productive.  They just rob your other hives...

>My Fifth Question: Would any of you even use a "base", or would you rather make Queens from all strains and allow them all to intermingle?

F1 hybrids tend to be mean.  I don't want hybrids.  I want mutts.

>My Sixth Question: Would you allow Queens to free-mate or use a method of Artificial Insemination?

Bee biology is all stacked to provide genetic diversity.  Genetic diversity is good.  II (or AI) was created to avoid diversity.

>I was told by an old Bee-breeder that a Virgin Queen left in a box with a glass-panel on one side with some Drones selected from good stock will initiate some form of Artificial Insemination, but that might just be urban legend.

It is a legend.  It has been attempted for several centuries now, at least since huber did it in the late 1700s and it has not succeeded.

>My Seventh Question: Is grafting the best way to produce Queens, or should I allow them to produce their own Queens via swarm cells or Supersedure?

All methods have their advantages and disadvantages.  There are many graftless methods.  Miller, Alley, Jay Smith's Better Queens, Hopkins.  Their books are free here:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesoldbooks.htm

>My Eighth Question: Should I put specialized Drone Frames in my hives or allow them to make Drone Cells wherever they please?

Allow them to build their own.  The drone frames will make drones that are consistently too big.  Their own cells will vary in size and that will improve their success.

> I ask this Question mostly because I have heard that Drone's raised in Cells that weren't "planned" are more healthy and contain more Semen, probably a myth, but maybe someone out there can prove it true or false.

I doubt that, but smaller drones are faster...


My Ninth and final Question: Do you use specialized hives such as Mating Nucs to rear Queens? I know that most breeders prefer Mating Nucs to larger hives because it's easier to control the Queen/Queen Cells, but some would like a larger hive because they can be split up using dividers and one hive can raise many Queens.

[ColeB234]

Thank you for your answer, it really sounds like you enjoy your Mutt bees. Unfortunately our Mutts around here often inherit nasty genetics from a Commercial Beekeeper who parks his A##hole bees from Florida right in the middle of all the wild colonies, so swarm calls can be dangerous up here.

I do have a yard that is five miles from that guy though, and that is most likely where I will breed my bees, that is of course whenever I find Caucasians.

Again, Thanks for the answer, I'll have to check out some of those methods for Queen Rearing.

[Walt Starr]

Local mutts from swarm calls and cutouts.

Aren't about all bees you can get with the exception of II/AI queens mutts?

[ColeB234]

Yeah, I guess they are, but I thought you meant the local wild stuff, I mean by no means do I consider any Russians to be pure Russians and the same with Carniolans or any other bee unless of course she has been through AI/II which I could never afforb because their like two-hundred bucks a piece at the cheapest.

[Michael Bush]

I guess I missed this one:

>My Ninth and final Question: Do you use specialized hives such as Mating Nucs to rear Queens? I know that most breeders prefer Mating Nucs to larger hives because it's easier to control the Queen/Queen Cells, but some would like a larger hive because they can be split up using dividers and one hive can raise many Queens.

I use two frame mating nucs that take my standard brood frame (a medium).  They are easy to set up (a frame of brood and a frame of honey and a shake of bees) and easy to combine back together at the end of the season.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm#matingnucs