California NUCs and packages vs SE US, Is there a difference

jalentour · October 19, 2014, 12:36:36 PM

I have been pricing nucs, packages and queens for 2015. I have noticed that, other than small local apiaries, the main suppliers are Georgia and California. Ohio State Bee Keepers Association has a few contacts on their site. Many draw from the southeast. Is there a big difference in the bees they retail? Should a small beek try to mix the sources for genetic diversity or just purchase the least expensive? I plan to purchase up to 5 nucs or #3 packages.
Indiana Joe

GSF · October 19, 2014, 02:06:11 PM

I can't answer your question and be totally sure I'm right but I will make a suggestion. Find a local bee club or their website and buy from them. Also put your order in now. Come January there won't be any left.

Michael Bush · October 20, 2014, 11:34:41 AM

In my experience in the current time, they will both fail equally....

jalentour · October 20, 2014, 02:55:18 PM

Is that true of the local bred stock?
So the best approach is to purchase the cheapest bees?

10framer · October 21, 2014, 01:06:39 PM

your best bet is to buy local stock from a reputable beekeeper. short of that, i prefer packages to nucs because i don't like used equipment.

rookie2531 · October 21, 2014, 08:50:47 PM

Quote from: jvalentour on October 20, 2014, 02:55:18 PM
Is that true of the local bred stock?
So the best approach is to purchase the cheapest bees?

Is your local stock, cheaper? I have heard that if you purchase from a source with the same climate or even colder, that the bees will be more hardy, than if you buy from stock not used to the harsh winters.

Just what I had heard.

jalentour · October 22, 2014, 12:32:02 AM

Rookie2531,
The local stock seems to be more expensive, if available. Most of the beek's group purchase from the south here (around $90-100 for a #3). I live in the Dayton Ohio area, my bees are in Lawrenceburg Indiana. I am in the process of joining clubs in the Dayton/Cincinnati/SE Indiana areas but I am not seeing much yet for sale. I imagine local bees won't be available until late May, where are you getting your bees?
Joe

rookie2531 · October 22, 2014, 05:07:39 AM

I bought a 3# package back in spring from a local supplier for 95. Plus tax, but he went and picked up a trailer full and I don't know where they came from.You already have bees? If cheaper is important to you, you can't get much cheaper than making your own with your own stock. That's what I have done and plan on doing in the future. I don't plan on buying bees ever again.

jalentour · October 22, 2014, 08:08:59 AM

I'm purchasing to speed up growth, hopefully without winter loss.
I plan to split what I can.
Going to try the swarm and trap route too, time permitting.

Michael Bush · October 22, 2014, 09:23:05 AM

>Is that true of the local bred stock?

Local would always be best.

>So the best approach is to purchase the cheapest bees?

The best approach is to catch local survivors... or, barring that, buy local stock.

rookie2531 · October 22, 2014, 07:30:54 PM

Don't give up on local, go to your local group and see if there are any sellers, there should be someone willing to make money. Also, beeks getting too old for the work and others changing to 8 frame boxes etc... Should be able to get some bees from them. Just speak up and ask the whole room.

OldMech · October 23, 2014, 12:16:03 AM

I happen to think that the package bees are fantastic!! Provided you requeen them mid summer with a local queen!
Buy the packages! Get your bees started, and when queens are available in the local area, requeen your hives. less than a month later the new queens progeny is emerging..

I have always slammed the package bees because of bad experiences with them.. This spring, I ordered ten packages to test my own faith and experience...
within the first week after installation three of them began supersedure. Within a month and a half, eight of ten packages HAD or were superseding.. As we go into fall, I have ONE of the original queens left from ten packages installed..
I also purchased TEN local nucs this spring.. Of ten nucs, i had ONE of them supersede.
"I raised 17 new queens from my own survivor stock, and made splits from my own hives. One of them absconded, and ONE of them superseded shortly after installation...

It has been my experience, that package queens have difficulty overwintering, and they are often superseded. I honestly feel, that package producers raise queens that are genetically designed to raise bees so they can produce packages..

Thats fine.. get the package bees.. then replace the queen with a mite and disease resistant queen from the same parallel (or higher) you reside as top choice.. a local queen as a second choice.. within a few weeks, that hive will be HER bees, not the package bees any more...

Disclaimer;
There are always exceptions, and my experiences with packages encompass a total of five different suppliers. I cannot tell you that bees from XXX will be better, or worse than the ones I tried.. Every package producer is different, has different methods, and may import northern queens, and or buy mite resistant (VSH or MN Hygienic) queens to improve his or her stock.. i am only relating my own experiences.

Michael Bush · October 23, 2014, 09:03:34 AM

> I happen to think that the package bees are fantastic!! Provided you requeen them mid summer with a local queen!

I sort of agree... recently I've had problems with poor queens in the packages and the bees abandoning the queen and moving next door...

rookie2531 · October 23, 2014, 12:36:18 PM

Thats sounds good and all oldmech, but if someone has to buy queens after buying packages, how is that cheaper? Also if he was to buy local packages/nucs he would have that queen from the start. And not have to worry about superceding queens killing bought ones and swarming and any other hassle that comes with introduction. I might be new ,but I do think these are things to consider.

OldMech · October 23, 2014, 05:08:30 PM

Quote from: rookie2531 on October 23, 2014, 12:36:18 PM
Thats sounds good and all oldmech, but if someone has to buy queens after buying packages, how is that cheaper? Also if he was to buy local packages/nucs he would have that queen from the start. And not have to worry about superceding queens killing bought ones and swarming and any other hassle that comes with introduction. I might be new ,but I do think these are things to consider.

Were we attempting to figure out the cheapest route to go? If thats the case then go put out a few swarm traps. You get local queens and free bees. Buying the nuc is going to be quite a bit more expensive than the package AND a new queen, so I am sort of lost.. what are we arguing about again?? Sorry, i am gettin old if I missed something obvious..
In the event i was going to put a new queen in a hive, there would not be any other queens in there to kill her, thats sort of the entire point of re queening the hive.. get rid of the old one so you can introduce the new one..
Your right, they are things to consider, and no matter how careful you are, there are bound to be things that go wrong. Its all part of beekeeping, and learning.. We each need to decide how we want to do it. how in depth we want to get, and the things we want to learn, and try..

rookie2531 · October 23, 2014, 05:40:31 PM

He did suggest he was contemplating cost and around here a package is 100. And a queen is 25. And that is if you drive and pick them up. A nuc is 150. And only one trip so I guess the package deal is a little cheaper after that second trip, (depending how far the drive is),but what I was saying is, if the colony supercedes and there is a virgin queen in there when he attempts to requeen than it may be killed and who knows what else, when he could just have that queen to begin with. Also, there might be someone in a local club just starting to sell or getting out of the beeking all together and sell him some even cheaper. No arguments, just opinions. :-)

jalentour · October 23, 2014, 06:59:54 PM

Sorry guys, I should have made my intentions more clear.
My first objective is to expand (quickly)on a budget. Ultimately, sell honey or bees or just enjoy. Property size is not a problem.

I wanted to explore the difference (if any) in quality of bees that we get in Ohio/Indiana. Most resellers/clubs import their bees from California and Georgia, or the SE USA.
I have found prices highest from locals, California, SE USA and feral, in that order. Since I am on a budget I would like to try and assure the best quality within the confines of the budget.

I have read that bees from California do not have the SHB problem the southern bees do. I have seen high recommendations (Oliverez?)for the California suppliers from Mann Lake from other beeks. I don't want to start a SHB debate, just inquiring about the best stock for the $$$$. Gentle, productive and reproductive are also factors.

I was initially looking to buy/harvest then split.

I have two strong hives now, attempted and failed at my first split.

i have a budget for about five #3 packages ($500) for bees, another budget for equipment (that's another thread).

I have gotten some great ideas so far, thanks to all.

From what I can tell the best bet is to buy the least expensive #3 package at club pricing, re-queen with local stock (when possible) when I split and monitor the hives for best performance. While I am doing that, learn how to start my own queens from the best performing hives, and harvest some feral bees.

Its a plan....

rookie2531 · October 23, 2014, 07:14:47 PM

You should be OK either way, good luck.

jalentour · October 23, 2014, 10:14:37 PM

Thanks, but I'm still wondering who sells the best packages for the money.

10framer · October 23, 2014, 11:00:03 PM

you could buy packages with no queens and give them each a frame with eggs and one with capped brood and let them raise queens with the genetics of your current bees mixed with the ferals of your area. just make sure you have drones flying before you do it. you could leave one hive for production (maybe only make on split from it) and divide the resources of the other one for the balance.