Foundationless frames

Eric Bosworth · November 03, 2014, 11:17:28 AM

I started to reply to a previous thread on Foundationless frames but the last comment was over 120 days ago so it suggested starting a new thread. Does anybody know if there is a manufacturer of foundationless frames other than Walter T. Kelly? I am probably going to start making my own but I was thinking that if there is a market I might sell some as well. I am trying to justify the purchase of a router and routing table. If I can make the top bars and sell them the decision will be easy. I have made some on a table saw but if I am going to make hundreds I can get a router and a routing table and make the comb guide quickly and easily down the entire length of an 8 foot board. Then rip that off with the table saw and cut it to length and start over. I can make them myself for about 15% of what Walter T. Kelly sells them for. At $60.50 for a bundle of 100 top bars that seems quite expensive to me. If anybody knows of another supplier please let me know. If you think I can make some and sell them to recoup the cost of the router and routing table I would like to know that as well. Thank you

Michael Bush · November 03, 2014, 02:54:14 PM

I think there is a definite market for some that are 1 1/4" wide with a good beveled guide. I have, in the past, ordered them from people who were willing to do them. But it must be a lot of work as none of those are making them now. I would make the top bar 3/4" wide (since it cuts out easily and is not far off of the ideal) and the end bars 1 1/4". I'd make them in mediums and deeps as there is a market for both of those. I would not bother with any fancy cuts (little bevels here and there will make no difference to the bees) beyond what it takes to make the comb guide and probably the typical hoffman end bar with a taper on the end to allow more movement from frame to frame.

OldMech · November 03, 2014, 05:19:27 PM

I make mine with 7/8 top bars and 5/8 bottom bars, with 1 3/8 side plates.. Mr. Bush likes running 11 frames int he ten frame brood boxes so 1 1/4 is perfect for him.
I use 7/8 top bars because using the router table to make the side plates works out perfectly to that width using a 5/8 router bit. Center the groove for the bottombar. Then when you flip the piece over to router the top bar it becomes 7/8.. The bottom of the side plates are 1/4 inch narrower than the top.. run the top through the router, turn it around and run it again.. I can make a LOT of side plates quickly that way.. have not found a FAST way to make the top bars yet.
As far as selling them.. Some people will buy them, but most prefer foundation. If your going to make them yourself, it doesnt take much to cut grooves for foundation as opposed to cutting a bevel.

http://outyard.weebly.com/frames.html

Eric Bosworth · November 04, 2014, 08:38:50 AM

Thanks for your input. There is a local sawmill that sells rough cut 1X8X8 hemlock for $3.20 If I calculated right I should be able to get 40 top bars from them. My father has a radial arm saw that would be real easy to cut notches in the edges for the end bars to slide over. So if I make stops the right distance with the radial I should be able to take the full board cut notches down the side at each stop on the side. Flip it over and do the same on the other side. Then I just run it through the router on each side to make the comb guide and rip it off with a table saw and cut it to length. Then just cut it to length and cut the comb guide off the ends. The width is almost the same width as a standard Walter Kelly top bar. The comb guide will be slightly different but the bees won't care. I can buy end bars cheap enough from dadent. I have an office from my day job that is 4 miles from the Waverly, NY Dadent store. If I don't have a reason to go out there the lady across the hall from me goes there at least once a week. I can probably give her honey to take a couple mile detour. I could do 1.25" wide but it wouldn't be quite an easy process. Instead of using the edge I would have to use the flat side and then use an angle bit to make a groove and then rip at the point of the groove. It wouldn't be that difficult to do but it might take a little trial and error to get it right. If I was to do something like that what would be a reasonable price?

Michael Bush · November 04, 2014, 09:02:51 AM

> If I was to do something like that what would be a reasonable price?

I don't think you'll get a lot of takers at $2 a frame. But it's not worth making them if you don't get something for your work. Anything under $1 for custom made would be too cheap to be worth doing unless you had equipment that made it go really fast. Like one or two passes per part of the frame.

Eric Bosworth · November 04, 2014, 10:22:38 AM

I do think I can do things quite quickly if I get the router and routing table especially if I I use standard width top bars. It might take me a few more passes to do 1.25" wide top bars. The other issue there is that they would end up being either quite thick or I would be wasting quite a bit of wood doing that. I don't couldn't make as many per board at that width. If I did the math right it should cost about $0.08/top bar. Compared to the $0.605 from Walter Kelly even if I don't sell many it wouldn't take long making my own for the router to pay for itself. I should probably wait until spring to see how my bees make it through the winter first.

hjon71 · November 04, 2014, 11:27:22 AM

I would like to try some if you decide to put this into production. As a hobbyist (1 hive, wanting 1 or 2 more) 100 frames would last me quite a while.

OldMech · November 04, 2014, 11:29:21 AM

See if your bees survive? And, if for soe strange reason they dont, youwould not replace them? Perhaps, with local bees better suited to wintering? Drive over and See Mr. Bush to get some good bees that will winter!
THEN... get back to work.. you know your having a ball and wont give up that easy!!

Making frames to sell is only PART of the equation.. Havign the ability to make them is great, but you need to sell them! In order to do that, you need to get the word out. Shipping is another issue you will find yourself dealing with.. Shipping is ridiculously stupid!! Shipping costs will make your $1.00 frames cost anyone they are shipped to into $2.00 frames.. Anyone picking them up will save quite a lot,and it will be worth their while for sure! Market them if you have local clubs in your area!
Beyond the ability to SELL the stuff you make, is the money you save on your own equipment.. By making my own frames, boxes, bottom boards, etc, etc.. I have around $2000.00 into 40 hives.. retail price on 40 hives is over ten grand.. Thats $8000.00 I could spend on better equipment to MAKE better hives.. providing of course you can convince the WIFE that your saving money when you buy that equipment....

Eric Bosworth · November 05, 2014, 08:39:22 AM

If my bees don't survive I do plan to replace them. I did see an interesting study about package bees and nucs that I thought was quite interesting.
http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNE10-694&y=2010&t=1
My hives were pretty light a few weeks ago and I fed them a lot in hopes of getting them through the winter. My wife has a vegetable garden hoop house that is supposed to protect from freezing down to 28 degrees Fahrenheit. I hope that it will keep them from the bitter cold and wind and give them a few more opportunities to make cleansing flights. Hopefully it will also give us fresh carrots and beats through the winter as well.

I have 3 nucs going into the winter. I would have 4 but I already lost one from a bear. The one I lost was thriving when the bear got it. I shouldn't feel too bad. I have learned a lot and I haven't spent much money. My parents gave me about 100 pounds of wax that they still had after about 20 years being out of the bee business. I sold the wax to buy the bees last spring and I came home with some extra cash as well. I still have some of it that I still need to filter out.

The comment about convincing the wife... That is a pretty big hurdle. Perhaps Michael Bush has some suggestions as to how to convince her that people won't think we are weird if we have an observation hive in the living room. I started to make one but she wants it "hidden and silent". Her biggest complaint is that she doesn't want to hear buzzing. I don't think that will be an issue. I told her that I would have it closed because the bees like darkness but she said she didn't want it to look like a bee hive and that I needed to make it a "functional piece of furniture like a bookshelf." So now I need to find a way to mount a bookshelf on the wall that will hinge and swing out one direction so that I can have my observation hive under it hinge and swing out the other direction. And I thought getting the bee space correct would be difficult.

Eric Bosworth · November 05, 2014, 08:42:37 AM

hjon71: What would you like? the 1.25" wide ones or standard 7/8" ones? and would would you just like the top bars or would you like the entire frame?

hjon71 · November 05, 2014, 12:02:28 PM

Quote from: Eric Bosworth on November 05, 2014, 08:42:37 AM
hjon71: What would you like? the 1.25" wide ones or standard 7/8" ones? and would would you just like the top bars or would you like the entire frame?

PM me or anyone else who shows an interest in your project. I believe buying/selling is frowned upon in general here on the forum.

Eric Bosworth · November 05, 2014, 12:35:36 PM

Seeing how I have yet to produce anything to sell I am sorry if I might have offended anybody. I was just wondering if there was a market. If there is a market I would like to know what people might want. I was actually thinking if there is interest I would sell on eBay.

Eric Bosworth · November 05, 2014, 01:44:44 PM

OldMech just out of curiosity why don't you cut your bevel with the router instead of the table saw? I do like your method of making end bars, but for top bars it seems like it would be quicker to make the angle with the router and make the cut for the entire 8 foot board length and then rip it off with the table saw, run the 8 foot board through the router, rip it off again and keep repeating until there wasn't anything left and then cut all of them to length. Or do you not have the correct bit for your router?

Sweet! · November 05, 2014, 02:43:06 PM

I bought mine from the Bee Thinking website. They sell both top bar only and for Langsroths; the Langs are sold in packs of 10 for $17. They have a triangular starter strip up top, and have them in the standard 3 depths. I used the plastic supports from Brushy Mountain and two of the 3 hives built them out pretty well. The third hive ignored them to the best of their ability, building out foundation in adjacent frames before moving to the foundationless.

OldMech · November 05, 2014, 08:06:19 PM

Router as opposed to the table saw? To me, its the same difference, or six of one and half a dozen of the other.. I buy tool shop carbide saw blades for 4.99 and wait for the buy one get one free deal.. so its a bit cheaper than router bits, but replacing the blade as opposed to the router bit, and running the board through the table saw as opposed to the router table both take about the same amount of time and effort.
I run the top bars out in bulk, it doesnt take me long to have a hundred beveled bars ready, it takes longer to shave the ends.. Making a jig I can set the router in and run it through to do the ends might speed that part of the process up.. Maybe make a jig that will do 20 ish bars at a time..

As far as the OB hive.. You wont hear the bees inside the house.. my OB hive is RIGHT beside my recliner and I have no clue its there at all. Thankfully my OB hive was my wifes idea!!

http://outyard.weebly.com/observation-hive.html

Eric Bosworth · November 05, 2014, 09:13:01 PM

I looked at bee thinking. It is quite interesting to me that they sell top bars for their top bar hives for more than the entire langstroth frame. I cannot imagine that the bees would care enough about cedar top bars to warrant the expense. They do look beautiful but really... Most of the time they are under the cover anyway.

Eric Bosworth · November 05, 2014, 09:30:56 PM

If you have both the router and the table saw you can cut the bevel with the router and rip with the saw and not change the blade angle or the fence. Then trim the edge with the dato blade on the radial arm saw. There are few things that the radial does better than the table saw. That is one. If you don't have one the expense is not wort it. But since I do....

GSF · November 05, 2014, 09:57:49 PM

Eric, I'm sure no one took offense. We just try to help each other stay between the ditches.

OldMech · November 05, 2014, 11:24:24 PM

Hrm... the RAS I had not thought about.. I picked up a mid 70's Craftsman RAS still NEW in the box cheap.. About all I use it for is ripping the plywood for bottom boards, inner overs and tele covers.. I'll think about that, Thanks Eric!

Eric Bosworth · November 06, 2014, 05:06:08 AM

Nothing does angled cutting better than the RAS. Except the miter but for something that you want cut to depth the miter is out. If you have the dato blade then it is just a quick zip and done trimming the ends. I like your OB hive. That might be an option that my wife would accept if I could put a bookshelf that swings out in front of it. I don't have a broken window to deal with however. I also like the idea of a one frame deep hive that I can see both sides.