All shallow boxes?

[Richard M]

Hi fairly new to this game, so my first question and it regards deep v shallow boxes.

I'm in Tasmania (Australia), our climate here is pretty mild, (although most Australians from the "Big Island" would disagree), mild damp temperate sums it up, we have four seasons, although the differences aren't as dramatic as in the northern hemisphere, we have 4 or 5 mild frosts each winter, average maximum temps in winter are 12 degrees C (54 deg F) and 22C (72F) in summer, with a few days in summer in the mid to high 30s (95-99F). We have snow down to about 1000ft several times each winter, last time it fell and stuck at sea level was in August 2005.

We've had our bees since Jan this year; they were active on all but the coldest and wet days through the last winter and even in winter, something is usually flowering somewhere, so what I'm saying is that they aren't going to die of cold most years.

We're just starting out in beekeeping and are sticking pretty much to the conventional wisdom, however one thing that irks me a little is the apparent requirement to run two sizes of boxes & frames.

We use full depth (9 & ³/₄" brood boxes; the shallow boxes we use are known here as Ideals which are 5 & ⁷/₈" deep.

Normal practice here is to shrink the hive down to two deeps and maybe a shallow of stores over the winter but it occurs to me that having two frame sizes makes life complicated.

When we first set our hives up last January (our equivalent of northern July), they were supplied as a 4 frame Ideal nuc of Caucasian bees with a new Italian queen each (communication problem, we wanted all Caucs but hey ho), which we transferred to an 8 frame Ideal box, with a new Ideal on top and a deep brood box of undrawn foundation on top.

Try as we might, the bees refused to move up into the top brood box and got themselves very crowded in the two Ideal boxes; in the end we put in a top feeder and this seemed to encourage them to start drawing foundation and the queen to move up and start laying brood in there, whilst the colony dutifully 3/4 filled the Ideal boxes with honey.

Once we thought they'd settled, we swapped the boxes around putting the deep brood box at the bottom of the hive, with the Ideal honey supers on top.

Fast forwards to August/Sept (Spring) and the queen and cluster had all moved north into the Ideal boxes and was laying in there, the bottom brood boxes were completely empty. By the time we got to October, the top two boxes were completely chocker block full but the deeps were still empty. We ended up fitting queen excluders to the brood boxes and transferring the queens in there, where they have finally taken the hint and are furiously cranking out brood.

The thought occurred to me that if the bees were happy to over winter in the Ideals, then why not just keep Ideal boxes only? It would save a lot of hassle not to need two different frame and box sizes and for everything to be interchangeable.

For over-wintering, 3 x Ideal boxes would give would give the equivalent of 2.25 deeps.

However, the thoughts and theories of a new, inexperienced beekeeper based on observation of 2 hives for a whole 10 months are all very well but the rest of the world seems to use the deep-shallow combination, so there must be a good reason for this hence I've not really given it much more consideration (and I do have a life to be getting on with).

Then by accident, I stumbled on the website of a beekeeper in SW Ireland who has developed a method he calls Rose Beehives, which is essentially what I was thinking. (Sorry but I'm still a new boy and am not yet allowed to post URLs or links, so if you want a look at this, google "Rose Beehives" and then click on the pdf slideshow in "What are Rose Hives?")

Also he doesn't need to use queen excluders, so the bees get to choose where to put the brood (down the centre I assume). I imagine that this means when it comes to honey extraction, you take the outer frames with mainly honey and consolidate the mainly brood frames in the remaining boxes, without having to worry about differing frame sizes.

I notice that he uses a One Size Box, which is midway in depth between a shallow and a deep.

I've a mind to have a go at this next spring using Ideal boxes, on one hive only, to see how they fare in comparison with our other two hives, which we can continue to manage conventionally using deep/shallow combination.

Thoughts anyone?

Richard M.

[Jow4040]

One size of box is quite common although most do not use ideals as that one size box. have a look and see if you can find WSP sized boxes. they seem to be very close to what the Americans use and call mediums.

There is a good article here:  http://www.bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm

Hope that helps.

[Culley]

I use deeps for the brood and deeps for the supers, although I'm going to try some shallower boxes for comb honey.

Ideals could end up being more management than deeps because they're smaller, ie more frames to assemble, wire and embed with foundation, more boxes to assemble and paint... Then when you're working the hives, more boxes to lift, more frames to inspect, etc... But they'll be lighter to lift.

But absolutely; one size for everything is a good idea.

[Richard M]

I use deeps for the brood and deeps for the supers, although I'm going to try some shallower boxes for comb honey.

Ideals could end up being more management than deeps because they're smaller, ie more frames to assemble, wire and embed with foundation, more boxes to assemble and paint... Then when you're working the hives, more boxes to lift, more frames to inspect, etc... But they'll be lighter to lift.

But absolutely; one size for everything is a good idea.

Are they significantly more though? Seems to me that it's not that much more. Granted, it's double the number of boxes for overwintering, compared with having two deeps, but after that ........

Although I can see how it would be a serious issue cost & timewise to buy parts & build boxes/frames if you had lots of hives. Don't think we're going to go much more than 4 hives though.

Issue for me/us is that we've already spent a fair bit to get where we are and most of our boxes now are Ideals, so I think it will make sense only buy Ideal parts for the future, if concentrating on one type.

[jayj200]

Then would you not need 3 to 4 ideals for the brood chamber?
rather than 2 deeps

[Culley]

Are they significantly more though? Seems to me that it's not that much more. Granted, it's double the number of boxes for overwintering, compared with having two deeps, but after that ........

Although I can see how it would be a serious issue cost & timewise to buy parts & build boxes/frames if you had lots of hives. Don't think we're going to go much more than 4 hives though.

Issue for me/us is that we've already spent a fair bit to get where we are and most of our boxes now are Ideals, so I think it will make sense only buy Ideal parts for the future, if concentrating on one type.

Well yeah, if you're already using ideals for supers than it's just more boxes and frames for the brood areas. I meant more than if you use all deeps. Either way, having everything one size gives you lots more options.

Has anyone on here used all ideals, or a US or UK equivalent?

[Michael Bush]

I don't know what the available equipment is as far as frames, foundation, feeders etc, there.  But here there are many more things available in mediums (6 5/8" boxes) such as one piece plastic frames, frame feeders, etc.  So if I could lift mediums (and I can) would use all mediums (and I do).  In fact I use all eight frame mediums.   If I could not lift eight frame mediums I would probably go with eight frame shallows, but there would be things I would not be able to buy for them.

[jayj200]

What he said

I use all 10 frame deeps we are going to stay at 2-3 hives
used a 10 frame deep as a honey super was just fine
ok it was a little heavy and we do have to honey supers. are they mediums?

[Simon]

Hi Richard,

There's plenty of people in Tasmania already using all ideals (8 frame ideals too). You shouldn't have any problems.  They are much lighter to lift than full-depth boxes and like some others have already mentioned, using a standard size for boxes makes your gear interchangeable.  The Australian Honey guys cut down a lot of WSP stuff to ideal size recently and that makes a lot of sense when you run thousands of hives.

Simon

[Richard M]

Then would you not need 3 to 4 ideals for the brood chamber?
rather than 2 deeps

3 ideals frames (136mm each) are a little less than 2 full depth (232mm each), ie total is 87% of the frame area in two full depths.

[Richard M]

Hi Richard,

There's plenty of people in Tasmania already using all ideals (8 frame ideals too). You shouldn't have any problems.  They are much lighter to lift than full-depth boxes and like some others have already mentioned, using a standard size for boxes makes your gear interchangeable.  The Australian Honey guys cut down a lot of WSP stuff to ideal size recently and that makes a lot of sense when you run thousands of hives.

Simon

Thanks for that observation Simon. I was out and about in the bush yesterday and saw an apiary close to the road with precisely that configuration.

We now own three hives with three full depth supers, (one each), so I'm thinking that next winter, we'll set up 2 x ideals over each brood box, my guess is the queens will move into the top two boxes and by Spring, the bottom deeps will be empty. For one hive only, we'll remove the deep altogether and just run them on ideals, will then have a spare box for swarms or might stick the spare deep over one of the others, so in effect we'll run one hive with all ideals, another with one deep topped with ideals and the last one with 2x deeps, then all ideals; see which we prefer.

[OldMech]

I don't know what the available equipment is as far as frames, foundation, feeders etc, there.  But here there are many more things available in mediums (6 5/8" boxes) such as one piece plastic frames, frame feeders, etc.  So if I could lift mediums (and I can) would use all mediums (and I do).  In fact I use all eight frame mediums.   If I could not lift eight frame mediums I would probably go with eight frame shallows, but there would be things I would not be able to buy for them.

   Good wisdom there..
   I also use all Medium (6 5/8) boxes, but I use the ten frame boxes..  If they ever get to be too much I will move to 8 frame..   I had a few DEEPS (9 5/8) boxes filled with honey this year.. One of them weighed in at just over 100 lbs..  It was NOT fun to lift or move...   But as stated is pretty easy to cut down to size..
   Here, three mediums = 2 deeps..  So basically you need ONE more box and TEN more frames per hive..  THe difference is in the price of wood..  I usually buy an 8 foot 2x8, enough to make one standard medium box for JUST under five dollars.. a 1x12x8 is approaching 9 dollars.. so twice as much to buy  Two deep boxes = 18 dollars, three medium boxes = 15 dollars, then you pay a bit more for the ten extra frames, but it all comes out in the wash..
   An elderly fellow a town over used to run all of hjis hives in Shallpw boxes.. 5 5/8 8 frame boxes and he did well..  So it all comes down to what works best for you!